Hi allI've been following the babble on the Captain Sim forum, and it raises an issue which I've often wondered about. I'd really like to know what you all feel about it.Some (a lot) of simmers seem to believe that payware developers are somehow immune from all the normal laws and conventions relating to commerce.In the minds of certain people, it appears that it's perfectly OK for commercial software developers who specialise in aircraft to be rude to their customers, to ignore communications, to disregard promises made, to threaten customers with sanctions.... please tell me I'm not the only one here who thinks this is not acceptable?I hope someone else feels the same as me, otherwise there's a chance my friends and family might have been right about me all along.

Damian, I'm with you. i haven't ordered the 727 from Captain Sim, nor do I intednt to.I do have their Aero L-39 and it is a nice bird. I don't think it's a big deal when a developer misses a deadline, well with the demands made by us as a community and the complexity of these add-ons it is not too surprising. What I can't condone is the attitude of treating customers who want refunds in the way Captain Sim seemed to be doing. Come one, it's only a game everyone needs to put that in perspective.

I agree!The whole issue with the Cap'Sim group is their arrogance, lackof repect, and humiliating customers.http://ftp.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...ewmode=threadedThey may produce great products, and I don't think the delayin the final product is the issue. The problem is that they'venow thrust on customers a special activation code, that'sbuggy, and requires customers to contact Cap'Sim whenever theyneed to move the product to a different PC.What happens when Cap'Sim ceases to exist? You'll essentiallynot be able to fly their product on any system other thanthe original PC.Crazy, just crazy!JerryG

Just my observations:I too waited for the Capt. Sim 727 and had pre ordered it.I too was dissappointed when it did not come out on the 19th.I too sent in my code and downloaded the aircraft.I too found numerous bugs in the product, however I am willing to wait for the improved 'real release' to see if they are fixed.Deadlines come and go, and if they are not met, well, -- that is the real world. Capt.Sim missed his, but at least offered us something until they can get the complete package finished To me, well, its just not that big a deal.If a customer is NOT satisfied with that, he should request a refund and HE SHOULD GET IT! IF A PAYING CUSTOMER DOES NOT LIKE THE PRODUCT HE HAS OFFERED TO US ATTHIS POINT, HE SHOULD BE REFUNDED AND GO HIS MERRY WAY. CAPT SIM DID SET HIS OWN DEADLINE -- AND THAT IS WHAT HIS COMPANY MUST LIVE WITH. FAIR IS FAIR.HOWEVER:Instead of whinning and complaining, I am looking at this as an chance to help the developer 'improve' the final product. Very seldom do we ever get that chance -- to give our input to the mfgr on a product we will buy. Think about it for a moment. The Capt Sim forum is full of intelligent posts (we won't talk about the crying and knashing of teeth posts) saying this does that, and this is not correct and we're just trying to help you fix it. Now, having said that, and being that so many of us want to be 'real' airline pilots, and crew, we should perhaps think that part of being a 'real' pilot, and being trusted with many passengers and a companies multi million dollar toy required a wee bit of common sense, intelligence and patience. The patience part comes in when you have to sit at the ramp, or on a taxiway for God knows how long waiting for some development, like weather, or such . . .before you can go play with your toy. I know very few real life airline captains who scream, shout, say nasty things and throw temper tantrums because they have to hold on the ramp, or wait at the gate. They may not like it, but they keep their cool and deal with it -- why? Because that is the way it is! That is real life, and that is how you deal with real situations in real life. (if you hold a position of responsibility which human life falls into that catagory.)Perhaps we should all take a lesson from 'real life' and apply it to our 'As real as it gets' life. Just an observers thoughts.Best to allClayton T. DopkeMajor, USAF (retired)"Drac"[email protected]

I appreciate the replies - thanks. Maybe it isn't just me after all... :-)And I wasn't aiming my remarks exclusively at Captain Sim. It seems there are a few companies who don't think everyday commercial principles apply to them. I'd mention them by name, but I'm scared they'd come round and burn my house down.There appears to be one big exception to this - Real Air Simulations, whose service appears to be really excellent (as it should be of course.)

Captain Sim isn't the only developer that's been afflicted with this problem. Unfortunately, even certain individuals from very reputable developers have problems with poor customer relations.Dave

I did not pre-order the 727 but was watching and waiting for the final release. I think the whole situation could have been avoided by Captainsim simply coming out before the release date and telling everyone honestly that they would miss the date. Then offer anyone who preordered a refund if they want, which should be acceptible because no one would have received the product so piracy is not an issue. Unfortunatly they waited until the 11th hour and then made a rather confusing communication to the community. A better message send a little earlier could have avoided much of the problem. As for pre-orders of software, I never pre-order something unless the seller will not charge my credit card until the final product ships. This is how EB World does it's software pre-orders. That way if a release date slips, at least no money changed hands so that if the buyer wants to change his/her mind, then so be it. Just my humble opinion. I would hope that the rift between CaptainSim and the community can be mended by cooler heads. There are too few quality developers in this hobby and I would hate to lose one.

ALL developers have problems with poor customer relations but this is quite often due to customer attitude and demands.. The Issue here I think is getting THROUGH the problems and still offering a QUALITY SERVICE remembering the simple FACT That the CUSTOMER IS IMPORTANT to our futurer as Developers. http://ftp.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboa...rum=DCForumID30

Phoenix 1 - I would argue that not only are your customers important to your future as developers, they are absolutely critical!I also think your statement about poor customer relations being the fault of the customer is very revealing. I've worked in service industries in the past and we ALWAYS said it was the customer's fault (it usually was) but we knew that good business means the customer is always RIGHT.(FWIW I have found the service from your own particular company to be very good.)

>There appears to be one big exception to this - Real Air >Simulations, whose service appears to be really excellent >(as it should be of course.) I agree. But other "good" guys in my opinion have been Flight1 and Dreamfleet. Neither shy away from controversy, never prescreen their forums, etc. If they get a stupid post they deal with it and never overdramatize it.Michael J.[link:hifi.avsim.net/activesky]http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

GrahamThat`s right getting through the problems should be job one but it`s you as the developer that should getting through them as that is what we are paying you for.It amazes me how that is forgotten by both developers and simmers alike.I really feel sorry for the guys that are getting shafted by Captain Sim and feel that their attitude is inexcuseable.Oh and let`s not forget the victims of Wilco`s latest monster while we`re at it.My sympathies are with them as well.

""Now, having said that, and being that so many of us want to be 'real' airline pilots, and crew, we should perhaps think that part of being a 'real' pilot, and being trusted with many passengers and a companies multi million dollar toy required a wee bit of common sense, intelligence and patience.""The last thing I'd want to be is an airline pilot. I agree with the "wee bit of common sense, intelligence and patience" comment. As far as payware goes, it'd behoove all those developers to clearly mark their products "AS IS", "WHERE IS". Course, it'd be best if they could demo the products before hand so we could make an informed purchase decision. But the problem there is with the "hackers" who'd simply break the codes.

Yeah the issue isn't the delay at all, it's 100% lack of communication - they knew the 727 wasn't gonna be done and they didn't post any kind of notice until nearly the end of the day PST on the 19th. Then, compound that with all the confusion over activation and the beta release, and you've got a recipie for distaster, as we're seeing right now.I'm very impressed with the tech release - it's nowhere near being done, but the panel looks spectacular, as does the visual model, and the flight dynamics other than the already noted high alt speed problems are spot on. I can definitely tell this plane is gonna be winner when (I hope not "if" at this point) it's finished. I think the CS forum should probably be shut down at this point and reopened when the final 727 is released - it's causing an all out war between CS and their customers and CS definitely isn't puting all the time they could be into finishing the plane when they're on the forums sparing with people every 10 minutes...

I think Capt. is just reacting to what has been thrown his way. Some ppl reacted very mature, and simply stated that they don't agree with the reg process and would like a refund. The others (and sad to say the Majority), reacted angrily from the get go and ppl started to post very negative and insulting posts. Yes I agree he should not have that policy, but it is his choose. People failed to realize that there is a real person there, DOING THIS FULL TIME

Dennis - I think you make some excellent points. You're absolutely right that just because you're paying money, it doesn't give you the right to be abusive towards someone.And I repeat, I wasn't directing my initial comments towards Captain Sim exclusively.There just appears (to me at any rate) to be a feeling amongst some developers that they're somehow above normal business protocol, and I wondered who shared my opinion.