Colour bleedthrough

[Alba 0]

Hi Folks, I am not yet up to speed here. I am repainting using DXTMBP and PSP9. The textures are DXT3 16million colours. Here's the problem. I make an edit and save it back to the texture folder. However when I reload it back into PSP9 using DXTBMP again for further work I see that my nice crisp lines have now bled blocks of colour and things don't look so good. The bleed through shows up in the sim.Is there a way to keep things nice and sharp without bleeding? Regards...Ken

[Leen3131cs 107]

After editing in PSP9 , saving the files to DXT3 actually reduces the colors to 256.Blocks and bleeding are the result.When DXTbmp loads your texture into PSP9 , is is loaded as a 16 milj color texture.The DXT3 texturefile itself however, is only 256 colors.Never open-edit-save and re-edit a file multiple times in DXTBmp.Each time a file is saved the quality gets worse.You may even end up with a file wich shows textures normally in DXTBmp , but wich is so damaged it can crash ( to desktop) FS.Just do all the editing on one single PSP file and save a copy from that file to a BMP or targa file.This BMP or targa can be converted with DXTBmp.So every time you create a DXT3 file you create a fresh one.Saving the files to 32-888 ( also with DXTBmp) keeps them in 16 milj colors.Now these files ( saved without mips ) are 4 Mb each instead of 1 Mb.Leen de Jager

[Alba 0]

Hi Leen, thanks for the help. Is this the drill?1 Open the texture with DXTBmp into PSP92 Make any edits then save the file in PSP9 as a psp file.3 Re-open in psp for further edits until I am happy with the result.4 Save finished texture as a bmp or targa.5 Reload after edit with DXTBmp and save back to the sim.DXT3 will be more frame rate friendly than 32-888. Is that correct?

[Leen3131cs 107]

1 Open the texture with DXTBmp into PSP92 Make any edits then save the file in PSP9 as a psp file. 3 Re-open in psp for further edits until I am happy with the result.4 Save finished texture (or unfinished texture during the proces) as copy, as a bmp or targa. *5 Load the texture (PSD/PSD saved as BMP or Targa )in DXTBmp and save.Always "save copy as"During the painting I always make copies from the PSP file after each stage ( copy 1, copy2 etc ).When the job does`nt go well , I` restart the works some steps back , with the help op my copies.DXT3 will be more frame rate friendly than 32-888. Is that correct?Yes and no.In theory yes and practically hardly.Bigger files take more resorces from the computer.Nowadays we spend much more of our recorces for scenery and stuff and some more Mb is`nt a big deal anymore.The quality of the texture can be significantly better with 32-888.When we have a texture containing just a few colors , reducing to 256 colors does`nt so much harm.On the other hand , when we have a very colorfull texture e.g. with fotographic textures or camouflage , much harm will be done to the texture by downscaling the amount of colors, when converting to DXT3.A good idea is to use 32-888 for fuselages and tailfins , their textures are the most important.Other surfaces like wings are generally spoken less colorfull and DXT3 will do the job nicely for these parts.MIND:When painting with the help of a "Paint-Kit" , these kits mostly have PSD (PhotoShop) files.Handling this file-type in PSP9 is no problem.These files however,often have alpha-layers.Alpha-layers are (for a part) responsible for the gloss and shine of the plane.Saving the PSP/PSD files to a 24 bit BMP makes these alphas disappear.Saving to a Targa format can preserve the alpha.The most simple way is to export the alpha layer to a BMP and replace the alpha to the final-file in DXTBmp.Sometimes editing the alpha as well , can do a good job to the repaint.RegardsLeen de Jagerhttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/181591.jpg

[Guest Bill_M]

I'm not sure what you mean by "bleed-through" Could you post a screen shot? What you're calling "bleed-through" might be the result of saving mipmaps. I have noticed that DXTBMP changes the colors somewhat with multiple saves of the exact same image. That is part of why I edit in PSE and then past the result onI have noticed that DXTBMP changes the colors somewhat with multiple saves of the exact same image. That is part of why I edit in PSE and then paste the result onto the file DXTBMP uses. I don't have problems with saving a texture in DXTBMP but then I do my real editing in Photoshop Elements. I do that so I can split things into layers. When I am ready to save, I flatten the image PSE file, copy the result and paste it onto the norm.bmp (or trans.bmp if I'm working on the alpha channel), flatten the result and save it. I use the textures in a paint kit or make my own paint kit so that I have the texture files in a pristine and layered format. Layers are very useful for allowing you to change color and marking without interfering with surface detail and such. I would like to see a screen cap with the "bleed-through" in it.Regards,Bill

[Leen3131cs 107]

Dear Bill,He is not talking about the looks of the plane showing in FS.He wrote; However when I reload it back into PSP9 ( = PaintShopPro9 = painting program ,NOT FS )So ,saving with or without mips has nothing to do with it.He is talking about distortion of the textures shown when reloading the files in his painting program.Why this occurs I explainded above.It is absolutely not vital to use PhotoshopElements , any good painting program capable of handling layered files and alpha layers will do.Multiple savings in DXTBmp are responsible for loss of quality and reliability of the files. Just ONE final saving of the texturefile in DXTBmp will do.If you have any doubt about that , just ask Martin Wright.He told me and I believe and confirm what he said about this phenomena.Leen de Jager

[Alba 0]

Hi Bill and Leen. Many thanks Leen for taking the time to do a schematic for me. A picture paints a thousand words!! I know what to do now with these textures. It is not a big repaint I am doing. I am only cleaning up the panel lines on the a/c fuselage and doors and adding some text. So it should be straightforward. Bigger work later!!Bill, I was experiencing blocks of different colours along these panel lines after saving my work back into DXTBmp, taking a look in the sim to check and then reloading for further editing. These blocks were 2-4 pixels or so in height and width. I had been converting back and forward each time I was checking my work in the sim. The nice crisp lines had degraded each time. It was driving me nuts because I did not know why.Now I do, thank you oh thank you.

[Guest Pipe]

>Hi Bill and Leen. Many thanks Leen for taking the time to do>a schematic for me. A picture paints a thousand words!! I know>what to do now with these textures. It is not a big repaint I>am doing. I am only cleaning up the panel lines on the a/c>fuselage and doors and adding some text. So it should be>straightforward. Bigger work later!!>>Bill, I was experiencing blocks of different colours along>these panel lines after saving my work back into DXTBmp,>taking a look in the sim to check and then reloading for>further editing. These blocks were 2-4 pixels or so in height>and width. I had been converting back and forward each time I>was checking my work in the sim. The nice crisp lines had>degraded each time. It was driving me nuts because I did not>know why.>>Now I do, thank you oh thank you.Leen is absolutely right. I

[Alba 0]

Hello Pipe, thanks also for your input. It sure is a steep learning curve, especially when you don't know what the heck's going on. However, this is a great community we are part of. I appreciate all the help.BTW, your Tup looks really good. Well worth the time and effort.

[Leen3131cs 107]

>>>>>>Basically I

[Guest Pipe]

Thanks for the hint, Leen!I

[Leen3131cs 107]

I am not shure, but I think the files you saved with FSR have alphas BUT the blurry appearance make the result of the aplha hard to see.Probably ( I am purely assuming now) FSR is saving the textures including mipmaps.Probably (assuming again) DXTBmp is set for saving without.Personally I never use FSR for painting (coupled to PSP or some other program)I only use the FSR demo as a viewer and tool to get things in line.What is the filesize of an 32-888 file saved with FSR?When it is 4 Mb it is saved without mips.When it is 5,33 Mb mips are included.Leen

[Guest Pipe]

DXTBmp is obviously MIP unchecked. I hate MIPs, they should be disinvented.The texture size after saving is the usual 4096Kb. The funny thing is that in FSR it doesn

[Leen3131cs 107]

Very strange , as I said before, I only have the stripped freeware version of FSR, so I cannot do experimenting myself.Lets hope there is a fellow-painter who knows and wants to share it wit us.RegardsLeen de Jager

[Guest Bill_M]

Leen, I never said or implied that it is "vital" to use PSE. It is highly useful to use a tool - such as PSE - that allows the repainter to separate the image into layers.I misunderstood about the "bleed through". While there is sometimes a slight color shift that occurs when one saves in DXTBMP, I find it fairly negligible. If I had a tool that worked with DXT3 format bitmaps and had at least the power of PSE I would jump to it in a femtosecond.BTW, do you jump on everyone's mistakes with equal vigor or am I getting a special dose of the de Jager charm? You seem to jump smack dab in the middle of me at the slightest provocation. In the future if you wish to dress me down, kindly do it private channel. FYI no one enjoys being dressed down in public by an ostensible peer.Bill