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brucek

New York area, God Forbid!!!!

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Still Loving FS2002 after all these Years. :)I've Been Into MSFS since FS4, and I have just taken myFirst ATC flight in the New York City Area.What a blast.What I want to Know is, How/Who/what/ controls this area.There is about 20 Airports in about a 20 mile area.Well I haven't bothered counting it exactly but it's somethinglike that.When I take off,ATC says...Take off on Runway Heading.But it seems to me, that by the time I've take off, andacknowledged my hand off, I'm just about in the Air space of another airport.MayBe I'm Just to slow, and not use to ATC, but does MSFS realisticly depict how this Area operates?

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HiThe default ATC in FS very rudimentary and simple. It will apply the same basic rules to every airport and area. It will not take into considerations any airports in the vincinity. It has been said it is also very sensitive to weather changes and especially pressure changes.I too was just stunned when I first tried the ATC in FS2k2. After a while I wanted something more realistic in terms of ATC and discovered VATSIM. I can really recommend getting connected to a realtime online ATC. Though the learning curve is somewhat steep there's a forum here avsim that will help you. Now I never use the default ATC anymore. ;-)See ya online!

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>>What I want to Know is, How/Who/what/ controls this area. >What - is New York TRACONWho - is the best damn controllers anywhere!How - is by magic :)Seriously, though, the control tower (not all airports have control towers) is responsible for take-off's, landings and the airspace immediately around the airport - which is usually 5 miles and up to 2,000'.Outside that airspace, you would talk to New York approach or departure control. The approach airspace is divided into sectors horizontally and vertically. Multiple controllers may work a sector (i.e. dedicated approach and departure controllers)MSFS actually does map the sector boundaries and frequencies pretty well. The default ATC hands you off as you cross the boundaries ... however, if you "cut the corner" on a sector you'll find yourself bouncing from controller to controller - where the "real world" controllers won't change you over if you're only going to be in the other guy's airspace for a couple of miles.I fly (real world) over JFK going between Boston and DC. There's nothing like truckin' along in your Skylane and watching a 747 pass you 1000' feet below while a 767 crosses 1000' above ... all the while listenting to the approach controller firing off vectors and altitude changes non-stop!! How those guys keep it all sorted out is beyond me.

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Yes you are right...best damn controllers in the world. I fly out of FRG and am equally amazed how things are so well sorted out all the while getting great services (Airfiles, Flight Following, Practice Approaches, etc.) from them usually at any time. That view of the 747 below you is even more awesome at night with NYC in the background. It looks like a small floating city mating up to the mother ship...truly spectacular.SAL

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On a United flight from KDEN to KORG I listened to Channel 9 (COM). ATC en route was easy going, with lots of "Goodays" and some chat. That changed when talking to KORG Approach. The guy sounded like in the commercials where they need to squeeze all the fine lines into 5 seconds!

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I think you meant KORD ... KORG is Orange County, TX ... 4000' rwy, no tower and served by Beaumont approach. I can't imagine anyone in Beaumont doing anything rapid fire :-lol:-outta

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Yeah Thanks... Starting to get the idea of what's going on Now.So would a Cessna be allowed to do Touch & Goes atJFK in Real life, or just go for joyflights aroundNew Yory City, landing and taking off at the VariousAP's that surround the City?.I can be nearly on top of another AP, before I caneven get a chance to Acknowledge my Hand off aftertake off, the ATC is so busy.Does this happen in real too.Just love the NY scenery.

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Touch & gos .. no, but JFK is a public use airport. If you want to land your Skyhawk there, ATC will discourage you but if you do everything by the book you're well within your rights to land there. Wouldn't want to put up with the hassle though :)As far as a New York City joy-ride, there is a VFR exclusion corridor along the Hudson river. Stay down at 1000' and you can fly down the Hudson from the Tappan Zee bridge right past Central Park, the Empire State Building and the Statue of Liberty. Stay to the right and keep your eyes open, because there is LOTS of traffic in the corridor!! Exit the corridor south across the Verrazano Narrows Bridge.Before 9/11, you would fly past the WTC towers well below the tops of the buildings ... an amazing sight!! Unfortunately it's a bit somber flying past the site today :(I would recommend going on-line to Sporty's Pilot shop (sportys.com) and buying a New York VFR Terminal Area Chart (about $7). It will show you all the airports and airspace around New York. It really enhances the sim if you're using charts from the real world.

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Yeah Thanks Skylane...I'm Starting to get the drift.I've made a few landing attempts at La Guardia,and have had a 737 or something, big jet fly rightover my head and land right in front of me, anda Dash8 or something slip in under me and land.The ATC's having fun and games with me it seems :)Both times LG Tower made me abort landing.It was great fun to watch though. I'm very impressed with the ATC though, consideringit's MSFS's first attempt at it.Didn't think it was going to be this good.I'm sure the experts can see it's full of holes though.

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Hi Martin,"I fly (real world) over JFK going between Boston and DC. There's nothing like truckin' along in your Skylane and watching a 747 pass you 1000' feet below while a 767 crosses 1000' above ... all the while listenting to the approach controller firing off vectors and altitude changes non-stop!! How those guys keep it all sorted out is beyond me."I'm a PPSEL in the Denver area, and of course the airspace is a lot less congested out here :) Can you give us a sample clearance you would receive for this flight, and the routing you would file?Thanks,Bruce.KBJC, Jeffco, COMy flight club: http://www.mcairaviation.com/home.htm

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I'm a PPSEL in the Denver area, and of course the airspace is a lot less congested out here :) Can you give us a sample clearance you would receive for this flight, and the routing you would file? No problem Bruce ..There are a couple of TEC routes for singles which go over JFK (if you've got a twin you're going out over the Atlantic!). I usually file KBED - KMTNRV BOSOX V419 GRAYM V14 ORW V16 ENO V268 SWANNV16 takes you down over Long Island and hangs a left at JFK. I will usually get cleared as filed. The route over Long Island has a hard altitude clearance of 6000' south/westbound. Don't expect higher or lower until after you're down over New Jersey.On the way back reverse the route until JFK and then V229 HFD HFD053 DREEMExpect 7000' northbound over JFK. I always get a full route clearance on the way back 'cause the FSS computers won't take the departure radial from HFD. I file HFD direct DREEM, but ATC wants you on the 053 radial (which happens to be direct).

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Thanks Martin,At least I can try this on FS. I'd love to try some of the more "congested" routes back east- maybe one day.......Bruce.KBJC, Jeffco, CO.

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Hey .. I'll trade you a flight down Long Island for some mountain flyin' out West :)That's the nice thing about light singles ... you get the best of IFR and VFR flyin'!!

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Another chart that would be handy is the Helicopter Route Chart for NYC. It's a "soft" laminated charts in 1:125,000 scale so it zooms in 2x over the Terminal Charts and 4x over the Sectional. The backside has a 1:50000 scale of Statue of Liberty/Governors Island. But it gives you a better look at where all the airspace is - where you can fly and where you can't.I used the helicopter chart for my flight down the VFR flyway. You can go up the East River as it's uncontrolled airspace below 1100ft, but the uncontrolled airspace ends after the North End of Roosevelt Island. Although you can fly over Roosevelt Island, you really have to do the steep turn before you get to the United Nations, because after the UN the airspace it too narrow to steep turn. Between the Williamsburg bridge and the UN there is a wide basin which gives you just enough room to do a 60 deg banked turn to do your 180 out. Of course a helicopter has a much easier job..On my way out southbound on the East River, I met a huge piece of trash that wafted it's way up to meet me at 900ft. It turned out to be someone's newspaper page before my prop got to chew up... I guess New York's version of AAA fire...As far as landing or touch and going at JFK... if you are able to get in there. expect to get mailed a landing fee/handling fee which I hear is quite expensive even for just a touch and go. :)Also while flying the VFR corridor down the Hudson, there is a self-announce air-to-air freq of 123.05 where you can make position reports and listen for others out there if they decide to self-anounce, e.g. "N1234A, overhead George Washington bridge, southbound Hudson River route, 900ft." (You don't clear the George Washington or Verrazano bridges by much...)Cheers :)Woodreau / KMVL

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Though not applicable to FS, JFK is also a part 93 airport (notice its name is underlined on the sectional). This will throw out one more restriction / requirement to its use in real life.Now, what would that be? Hint: Either the AFD or AIM should tell you. ;-)On the plus side, check the sectional or Class B chart, and you'll see where you can fly to get a legal, and spectacular view of JFK!I've never tried this one myself, as I'm usually happy just taking in the sights up and down the Hudson river.Of course, one nice thing about FS is that you can throw all the rules and regs out the door whenever you want to! :-)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...RUM_LOUF_A2.jpg

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JFK is a designated High Density Traffic Area (HDTA) airport. You need a takeoff or landing reservation to depart or land at the airport whether you're IFR or VFR. Actually for JFK the reservation requirement is in-force between 3:00 pm and 8:00 pm.All the major New York area airports (JFK, LGA, EWR) are designated HDTA airports. The other two are ORD and DCA (of course GA aircraft are currently prohibited at DCA, so the designation is moot if you're flyin' your Skyhawk!)

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Hi Martin,Would you be intersted in swapping obsolete sectionals / TAC's? I've just bought a new set to keep current. If so, maybe we can e-mail the details? I'm at brucek@qwest.netThanks,Bruce.KBJC, Jeffco, CO.

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