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Do default FS2002 aircraft support DME for NDS's?

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I am attempting to practice an NDB approach to Keewanee Muni (EZI) which stipulates the proceedure must be within 10 NM of the NDB.Is there a default aircraft or addon that would assure me that my proceedure IS within the 10 NM limit?Any tips, suggestions or errata would be appreciated!

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NDB = Non Directional Beacon, therefore, no DMEI suppose one suggestion for what you want to accomplish is put the NDB as a waypoint in GPS - now you'll know exactly where you are in relation to it.Joe Miller

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OR, he could do what pilots did years ago in this situation. We knew what the winds were (approximately) at our altitude and GS of our aircraft,we knew how many miles we covered in a minute of flying, then we flew the approach with one eye on the clock, timing our outbound from the IAF leg and outbound PT leg.Do this, you will/should never violate the airspace restrictions.Of course, if there is a VOR with DME on or very near the field, and you know how far the field is from the NDB, then you should be able to use that to stay within the airspace restrictions.Sure wish we had that 40 years ago!! GPS would also have been real nice!!:-)Paul

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Easiest way is to use the GPS, but if you would like to do it the way it was intended to be done you

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Your supposed to use your ground speed and a stop watch when doing your procedure turns to ensure you stay within the 10nm limit.

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Hey there,Just wanted to point out that there ARE in fact NDB/DME approaches out there. For instance, KORF has an NDB/DME approach to RWY 23. A DME can be co-located with any NAVAID, it's not exclusive to VOR's and ILS.Best Regards,Nick

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Yep, but the DME normally comes from a VOR located on the field and a capability of receiving simultaneously BOTH the NDB and the VOR/DME is required for the approach. The approach plates for ORF (current as of Mar 20 of this year--DOD Flip) I am looking at do not currently include a NDB/DME to 23. There is however an RNAV(GPS) approach.However, some old Jepp I have, dated back in June of 1996 do show this approach. However, the DME comes from the ORF VOR, located on the field. The NDB is OR from the LOM for Runway5. And the approach plate indicates you must have the capability I mentioned above.If you have a current approach plate, what does it show as the source of the DME?? The NDB would most likely be the same LOM, since it is still in service. And what other setups do you know of that can confirm that NDBs might have a DME co-located with them. News to me. Paul

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Hi Paul,Yes, sorry. My reference to KORF was outdated. I also incorrectly referenced a DME that is located at the ORF VORTAC, not the LOM. I haven't spent too much time looking, as our route manuals are rather thick. But I have found two other examples:First is from overseas. EDLP (Paderborn) has and NDB/DME approach using PAD NDB/DME. The DME is co-located with PAD NDB, not an on field VOR/VORTAC.Second is state side at Friedman Memorial Airport (KSUN). This airport has an NDB/DME approach to runway 13/31 using the HLE NDB. Again, the DME is co-located at the NDB, not on-field.These are the first two I found. Again, with regard to Norfolk, you're absolutely right, my mistake.EDIT: I've attached a current IAP for KSUN below.Best Regards,Nickhttp://forums.avsim.com/user_files/18617.gif

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Hi Nick,Notice the frequencies involved here. The NDB is 220 (I think that is KHz) and the DME is 108.8 MHz. Thus the DME must be tuned on the VOR receiver. On second thought, I suppose the VOR with DME has to be a receiver/transmitter in order for DME to work, doesn't it? For sure, a direction finder (NDB set) is a receiver only. But I, for one, was not aware that DME transceivers were colocated with NDBs. R-

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Hi there Ron (can I call you Ron? ;) )Yes, you'd definitely have to tune 108.8 into your NAV receiver to receive the DME signal. Obviously your NAV radio would have to be DME equipped, too. As you said, the ADF is a receiver only.Anyhoo,Nick

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Hi Nick,Aviation continues to amaze me on a daily basis--always something new to learn, no matter how long you have been associated with it. I started flying in 1959, instrument rating in 1960, helicopters and associated instruments in 1961 and 1964 respectively, and I had NEVER heard of or run into a DME co-located with an NDB before. Looking at that approach plate for SUN though, I can understand why it is necessary in this particular case--the clouds there have huge rocks in them. :-)Thanks for providing that info. I wonder how many other places here in the States or in Canada have that type of set up? Looks like a good research project to help fill part of my retirement time--and let my better half know I am doing something productive!! :-lolBTW, I went to KSUN in FS2002, checked out to see if those navaids were set up the way the approach plate shows. Yup, they sure are. But you cannot receive the NDB sitting on the ground at the field, not even on the approach end of 31. But you can receive the DME, and it shows the distance to be right on the money. Airborne, the NDB can be picked up quite clearly, and the ID confirms it. I would still want to have my stopwatch as a backup though. :-)Amazing what a home PC and $60 piece of software can do. Regards,Paul

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Thanks gentlemen for all your responses. It would appear that a newbie has created a topic that many chose to respond to.I can up with a simple way to "test" distance to the NDB. Open the GPS reciever and then set the distance ring to either 10 or 20 NM. A positional annoucement every once in a while will also help in determining distance from a NDB if located close to the airport.Having Terminal Procedures in my possession, I see that lots of NDB approaches don't always send you directly down the runway center line.Again, thanks to everybody that answered my question, it is appreciated!

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Hi Paul,I got to thinking about what you said, with regard to not receiving the station at the runway. I checked out AirNav.com and lo and behold, it says the NDB is unusable between 310 and 350. I wonder if FS is that good, or if its just a fluke? That certainly would be amazing for a $60 program!Anyway, flying an NDB approach in the mountains, even with DME isn't my idea of fun. Hats off to you guys who did all the time "back in the day". I'm sure you have more than a few "and there I was..." stories.Thanks for the conversation. See you around the forums...Best Regards,Nick

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Hi Nick,That would be very strange if it was unusable--since the published final approach heading is 330. My DOD FLIP does not have that approach in it. And the old Jepp where I did find an IAP had no mention of that limitation. However, it does show the PT and minimum approach altitude is 8000msl (field elevation is 5315) and MA point is at DME 5.0--which is 5.3 miles from the field. Procedure not authorized at night--not surprising, since there are mountains all around the area--final approach is like flying through a funnel. And this IS a circling approach only, which is a little bit strange since the runway heading is 31--well within the 30 degrees considered to be a straight in approach. However, that could be due to the requirement on the plate to fly visual to the runway from the 5.3 mile MA point even if landing on 31 and the rather high minimums of 2685 AGL. I do know in the sim, at altitude (I just used slew), I could pick up the NDB--have not yet tried flying it though. I believe that will be coming along pretty soon. Has my interest piqued. :-)Regards,Paul

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My thoughts as to why it's a circling vice a straight in approach is that you can't do a normal descent to landing if you stay at MDA at the missed approach point. You'd need to lose 2685ft in 5nm, so roughly 500ft/nm which at 90kts is 750ft/min?Just my guess anyways.And you already know that if you break out sooner, get the runway environment in sight, start descending below MDA and get set up for normal descent to do a straight in approach, you can do the straight in.Woodreau / KMVL

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Hey Paul,Yeah, I thought the note was a bit odd too...considering the 330 course to the field. But thats what it says. It also mentions that DME service volume restrictions. Here are the facility remarks:DME CHANNEL 025X PAIRED WITH VHF FREQ 108.8.DME PORTION UNUSBL 280-080 BYD 12 NM & 080-280.NDB PORTION UNUSBL 310-350.DME UNMON.This is tempered by another note on the plate itself, though. Note the part that says, "Occasional ADF swings away from final approach course are to be expected North of Missed Approach Point."That must mean that the NDB is usable on a 330 bearing, albeit with "occasional" needle swings.Also, note the interesting service volume for the DME. It appears that its only usable between 280 and 080, within 12nm.I haven't gotten a chance to fly it in the sim yet. What do you think?Rgds,Nick

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