Flight plan building with STARs

[Guest smegger]

I have just bought RC and am very impressed. I also bought FSBuild in order to create flight plans. I want to fly as realistically as possible and want to use SIDs and STARs when flying a 747. I would appreciate any advice from more experienced simmers regarding building a flight plan. Should I add destination runway and STAR when I do not know which runway will be available when I arrive? For example a change in wind direction may result in runway 27 being in use after I have inserted runway 9 and an apropriate STAR in the plan. I know that I can request another runway (my original) but it does not seem realistic to use runway 9 when all the AI traffic is using runway 27. Also if I use runway 27 I will need to tell RC that I wish to use whichever STAR is appropriate for runway 27. Am I able to do this? Finally if I divert to another airport can I tell RC which STAR I wish to use at the new airport.

[jd 57]

I have just bought RC and am very impressed. I also bought FSBuild in order to create flight plans. I want to fly as realistically as possible and want to use SIDs and STARs when flying a 747. I would appreciate any advice from more experienced simmers regarding building a flight plan. Should I add destination runway and STAR when I do not know which runway will be available when I arrive? For example a change in wind direction may result in runway 27 being in use after I have inserted runway 9 and an apropriate STAR in the plan. I know that I can request another runway (my original) but it does not seem realistic to use runway 9 when all the AI traffic is using runway 27. Also if I use runway 27 I will need to tell RC that I wish to use whichever STAR is appropriate for runway 27. Am I able to do this? Finally if I divert to another airport can I tell RC which STAR I wish to use at the new airport.

there is a whole section in the manual on flighplanning and sids and stars.there are at least one tutorial on flying a sid and star.that's where i would start.jd

[ronzie 21]

Start at pages 107 through 109 of the RC43 manual. If you don't have that version you can get it here:http://www.jdtllc.com/v4/rcv43.pdfCheck the STAR tutorial on the KATL arrival page 170.This thread might also be of interest:http://forums1.avsim.net/index.php?showtop...506&hl=STARPage 80 contains a specific tutorial for FSBuild written by Bob Johnson. I am adding just a few items following describing my preferred method.I use FSB along with the PMDG 737NGs.In general there is a problem with using FMC runway specific SIDs and STARs. RC must see the same waypoints are your FMC and therefore those waypoints must be included in the .pln file sent to RC. Where there are common points among the runways you can choose to include these in your .pln file. RC allows you to choose to navigate on your own within a thirty mile distance of the airport then flying to direct to waypoints outside this limit.The other problem is keeping FMC SID-STAR data and FSBuild SID-STAR data in sync. I choose not to use the FMC SID-STAR data base but do use the FMC runway arrival data which shows basically final with an extended runway line on the ND.Here's how to edit FSB data before export to the FMC and .pln format for RC. In FSB build your plan including the SID-STAR waypoints. In Build Options there is a setting (not sticky between sessions) to build from the route/grid table. modify in the route grid as necessary eliminating non-common waypoints inside 30 nm of the airports. Set the export options to your FMC version and FS version for RC. Rebuild the route. You may wish at this time to print the NAVLOG from FSB.When ready to set your route on the FMC import this plan. For the PMDG 737NG choose index/navdata/flightplans. Scroll through the list with PREV/NEXT keys and LSK the plan name to put it in the scratchpad. Go to RTE page one and LSK CO_ROUTE and it will fill that in. You can now activate and execute that. Load the .pln file into RC. You now have synced waypoints.Similarly your .pln file for destination will only have waypoints up to 30 nm from arrival for RC to follow. For arrival when approach assigns the runway acknowledge it and then request an IAP for the assigned approach. RC will grant it and you can navigate on your own. The runway RC chose first checks for active AI and if none then follows weather and runway facilities for best choice. You can change this if you wish in flight. Enter this into your FMC ARR/DEP page, edit your LEGS page if necessary to delete waypoints already crossed (don't do this while in HNAV) and close discontinuities to get waypoints on your FMC inside 30 nm. When ready reengage HNAV.Some STARS are not runway specific and state you'll get vectors for the arrival. This same method for the .pln file can be used and RC will issue the vectors if you don't request an IAP as you get within 30 nm. When using vectors just fly with MCP HDG, ALT, and SPEED as directed.For departure RC will expect you to cross the first waypoint outside of 30 nm under all options. If taking vectors RC will line you up for that. If your first waypoint (seen by RC) is within 30 nm RC will treat it as a filed DP for you to navigate on your own. You can choose that if you wish on your FMC if the data matches what RC sees.If you choose to get AIRAC updates your waypoint sync problem between your FMC database and FSB database can be reduced. FSB has free AIRAC updates you can install at fsbuild.com. Look in the upper left corner. FMC terminal procedures in many FMC formats can subscribed to at NAVIGRAPH.COM. Free PMDG FMC terminal (SID-STAR) procedures are available in the AVSIM AI Traffic library from author Dan Downs (downs) for 65 major US airports. Planepath.com has free FMC procedures for some popular FMCs for the US and some UK and some other nearby regions.On the 737 and I think 747 I choose to put a 30 nm range ring around the departure airport and 40 nm and if you wish 30 nm around your arrival airport. This helps with your .pln display on your ND for knowing what phase of flight regarding restrictions you are in on how to operate in the DEP and ARR airport areas. The 40 nm mile range ring around destination is to meet your RC crossing restriction at 40 nm out by observing your descent trend arcs and adjusting your V/S so you cross the intersection of the 40 nm and you path accordingly.Be sure you know on your FMC how to do a "direct-to" equivalent. On the PMDG LEGS page LSK the waypoint you wish to go to so the name is in the scratchpad and then LSK the first top page 1 waypoint. Then EXE the change. This is a similar method to skip waypoints further down the LEGS page. Remember ATC rules, not your FMC, and use your MCP controls when necessary to satisfy ATC.Try to acquire terminal charts to help with altitudes and other planning. Free FAA chart bundles are available at flightaware.com. Some VATSIM chapters offer charts or links to them for other jurisdictions.To allow altitude variation with RC assuming advisory capacity on your controller tab select NOTAMS for your departure and destination airports each as you wish. This gives you altitude flexibility in the 30 nm departure range and arrival range. It does not relay your crossing restriction on arrival.I use Active Sky 6.5 with FS9 and by the way FSB interfaces with that for weather fuel planning. I import archived weather into AS for the date and ZULU time of flight so the environment is consistent for the ZULU time of day of the locality I depart from. As you know the weather changes according to sun effects. By looking at the departure and arrival METARS I can estimate what runways AI will use subject to any runway restrictions. I print these METARS so I can set in advance (for those aircraft panels that allow it by having a STD button) the arrival altimeter pressure which will get it close for what RC will deliver. That's less to do at a busy arrival time as you descend through the local transition altitude and need to switch to local pressure. Transition altitudes RC will use are on the Controller Tab in RC for each airport. If you wish they can be modified.That's a load of information. I can tell you that RC5 will have better handling with extended range for SIDs and STARs.Much of this is my preferred methods and are not universal.If you use any aircraft with non-proprietary panels that you wish to install an FMC into, I can tell you I'm interested in evaluating (for FS9) and perhaps acquiring some retrofit ones the developer of FSB at http://isgsim.com/?page=features . Ernie at this time is also supplying free AIRAC updates for these. This comment is not on behalf of the RC team, just me. I only mention this as the same procedures I use apply.What I have described is much easier to do than write about. Adjust this information to your needs. Hope this helps.

[Guest smegger]

Thanks Ronzie for such an EPIC reply. I think I understand things better now. If I have to change to a different runway/STAR when I get within 30 miles of the airport I can enter the new Runway/STAR in my FMC and as long as I tell RC the runway I plan to use and that I am using an IAP I should be OK to follow the new STARs course without RC getting upset. If I may impose on you once more. I know that this is an RC forum and the question relates to using FSBuild but I tried what you suggested and entered EGCC as my departure airport runway 5L (destination EDDW) and entered DESI1S as the DP/SID. This resulted in the first 2 items of the flight plan being EGCC and DESI1S but when I pressed "Build" 2 extra waypoints appeared between them in the waypoint table. The first 4 waypoints were EGCC D054A D055L and DESI1S. These middle 2 waypoints took me over 100 miles away from it and then back to near to the airport to the DP/SID. Do you know of a way to remove individual waypoints that appear in the waypoint table but not in the flight plan. Thanks again for your really helpful reply.

[ronzie 21]

First Question:RC must have the correct waypoints up to the 30 nm radius of destination if you select IAP. If your FMC STAR path agrees up to that point, your OK. That's why I suggested that you import from FSBuild the expected STAR and then eliminate the waypoints within the 30 nm radius of destination in its waypoint grid table, select the build from grid option, and then export for FS/RC/FMC. If your expected runway changes and points outside of the 30 nm radius changes, RC will no longer be in sync. Yes, that's a problem.Second Question:What is shown in FSB's grid route table is the expansion into waypoints of the SID/STAR you selected or placed into the route box. If you wish to eliminate those from data exported in FS and FMC formats, delete those from the grid table and set the option to build/export from it. It should be noted however that those names are local waypoints for the airport departure arrival.Here's a link to current EGCC plates:http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/public/index...Itemid=148.htmland DESI1 in particular:http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/current/...EGCC_6-7_en.pdfI've attached a cutout below.Note the DME based turns and crossing restrictions. Whatever FSB uses for STAR data has perhaps replaced the locations with those local waypoints D054A D055L. The third waypoint in the grid was DESIG, the transition intersection waypoint. There should be no DESI1S waypoint in the grid table.Note the DME waypoints might be duplicates in a nearby airport. FSB might have put them in in error. By default it limits bounding by 300 nm if autoroute was used. However I put the following plan into FSB with no autoroute and built it for test:EGCC DESI1S EDDWI'm attaching the map extract to show the expansion and the route table extract.Note the distance in the table on line 1 of 0 is to the first waypoint. That might be the alignment to get on the radial described in the attached description as DER. In RC you might want to eliminate that waypoint from the grid table since it is so close to takeoff. The next waypoint D055L at 11 miles out is there for your AOA 4,000 feet crossing restriction. (RC4 will not use imported altitudes.) Finally there is DESIG, your transition waypoint AT 5,000 feet.Now if you are wondering if DESIG is in line with the rest of your plan, that is another topic.Here's the exported .pln file in FS9 with that first waypoint deleted from the grid table that RC gets:[flightplan]title=EGCC to EDDWdescription=EGCC, EDDWtype=IFRroutetype=3cruising_altitude=37000departure_id=EGCC, N53* 21.14', W002* 16.30',+000257.00departure_position=05Ldestination_id=EDDW, N53* 02.50', E008* 47.12',+000014.00departure_name=MANCHESTERdestination_name=BREMENwaypoint.0=EGCC, A, N53* 21.14', W002* 16.30', +000000.00, waypoint.1=D055L, I, N53* 28.53', W002* 00.01', +04000.00, waypoint.2=DESIG, I, N53* 31.37', W001* 53.34', +06000.00, waypoint.3=EDDW, A, N53* 02.50', E008* 47.12', +000000.00, I hope this helps.

[Guest smegger]

Hi Ronzie, Thanks for your reply. It's very interesting. I did as you did and build a flightplan for EGCC DESI1S EDWW however my waypoints were : Waypoint 1 EGCC N53' 21 14, W02' 16 30 Waypoint 2 D054A N52' 24 59, E00' 34 09 Waypoint 3 D055L N53' 28 53, W02' 00 01 Waypoint 4 DESIG N53' 31 37, W01' 53 34 Waypont 5 EDDW N53' 02 50, E08' 47 12As you can see the latitude and longitude of waypoints 2 and 3 are different to yours. If you use FSBuild to see where these coordinates are you will see how far away from the airport they are. I wonder why yours are different to mine? I am probably missing something simple but I cannot see how to remove a waypoint from the route table. I've looked through the manual but cannot see how to do it. It is probably me being stupid but how do you do it? Thanks again for all your time.P.S. I tried to add an image of my route table but when I clicked on the "insert image" icon a window opened and asked me for the URL. I don't know what this has to do with my picture but I was unable to paste my image. Sorry.

[ronzie 21]

Check your FSB build information by opening it up and clicking help/about. Mine is 2.3.7.6.2 build 239. If you have 2.x and if you bought it from simmarket.com, the download area, go to My Account, after logging in, Order Details, find the order in the table and click on it and there should be a link for an update download. I am using an installed AIRAC from about May of 2008. Finally I have this setting for ident duplicate search limits in fsbuild2.cfg as:[FSBUILD]AUTOREFRESH_DELAY=1MAGYEAR=2002AIRCRAFT=B737-700 w/ CFM56-7B24ROUTELINE=1NATRAKURL=www.natroutes.glideslope.de/html/nats.php3NAVCHKDUPDIST=100 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<WEATHERPROG=AS6Back it up if you edit it and don't put in the <<<<<<<<< I used to highlight the line.I have located I think your problem. In the file fsb_int.txt there is a duplicate waypoint name as follows:D054A LKH054001 N52:24:59 E00:34:09 INTD054A R05L054001 N53:21:44 W02:15:25 INTThese local waypoints in the data do not have the ICAO protection of exclusive labels.These are within the default limit of I think 300 nm. Note the first line is the one in your plan. Mine uses the second line. Change your line in fsbuild2.cfg (after making a safety copy such as fsbuild2.cfx) as I noted to:NAVCHKDUPDIST=100the start FSBuild and retry the plan to see if it is different. If it doesn't you made need the update. Also, as you probably know, AIRAC updates are free so far at fsbuild.com. Also check out this forum for any update news, etc.:http://www.fsbuild.com/forum/viewforum.php...5eaf0da83db365dFrom that forum, after you update to using the file 2.3 file on simmarket you may need this link to update the update :) :http://www.fsbuild.com/dl/Fsbuild2376_2Upd.exeCheck out your build first to insure this is later.Any further help you need look at that forum for FSBuild support. Just let me know if this works for you.

[Guest smegger]

Hi Ronzie, I checked my Build information and I am using 2.3.2.3.1 Build 209. I tried updating it but it was the same after the update. I then downloaded and installed the www.fsbuild.com/dl/Fsbuild2376 2Upd.exe update and now have the same version as you. I altered the fsbuild.cfg as you suggested and no longer have the waypoint problem. I have also downloaded the AIRAC update but have not installed it yet. I think that this update would have to tally with the AIRAC in my PMDG 747 FMC or the FSBuild flightplan may not be coincide with the PMDG data. Thanks again for all the help. I'm sure my flying will be much more enjoyable due to your suggestions. I'll leave you alone now to get on with your own flying.Phil