Call em what you like they're still vital.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

I have to agree Will...Although there's a difference in people who complain, but seek answers, vs. those who complain just for the sake of it. I see no reason to justify those who come in, either with an "I told you so" attitude or with an "It doesn't work, and I shouldn't have to tweak" attitude or with a "why should ATI or Nvidia have to fix it" attitude.If you look at the handles of some of the people "trolling" you'll see some are avid users of the other sims. And/or, they show as having posted here once or twice, and it turns out they've never even flown the sims.Some highly respected people here who know how to tweak systems are having issues with FS2004. Hornit, Dan P, and others are among them. They aren't trolls, and when they say they've exhausted all options, I believe them. FS2004 has issues, such as the fps seeming to suffer when closing on airports.It's funny but you will often seen an answer saying that performance doesn't suffer on person "x's" system. But then you learn they have the fps locked at 15--a hard sell for some FS2002 users that got away with locks of 25fps or more. The difference that defines whether person "Y" is a troll, is whether they communicate what's happening without acting out against the community or person "x". Even if there's a communication issue between person x and person y, person x didn't write the sim and in a good dialogue, person y should take that into account.The trolls are those who come in, complain, bash the user base here, and move out. There's no need for them, and I don't put them in the same league as those that work tirelessly to break Windows.And here's one thought for those listening at Microsoft--fix the buffer overflow issues. I'm tired of reading it and having a new alert on my desk every week. Microsoft should be doing the work--not some hacker group!-John

[vgbaron 3,627]

Well, I gotta add my two cents here also and agree with what's been said. I also want to throw out however, that we really have to give MS a break on some of this. Anyone who has ever programmed for a living knows how difficult it is to track down bugs. Even with the manpower of MS, we're talking MILLIONS of lines of code here. How many times have programmers focused on one problem, fixed it only to find that the *fix* created another. Bad coding? I think not - it comes with the territory. If you write anything but a trivial program you will probably have a bug or two to get at. Now multiply this by the size of MS effort, whether it be an OS or FS.We all complain about this or that, myself included, but has anyone taken the time to step back and look at the complexity of what FS does? Just the amount of different system combinations it has to deal with is mind boggling.There are some who may respond with "They should get it right the first time - that's what beta testers are for" are not dealing in the real world.All that said, I do believe we must still keep after MS to improve their efforts and these forums are a major part of that communication.Hmmm - I guess I spent more than two cents on my soapbox - apologies - but that's how I feel.vgb

[Guest]

Well said, and what people should remember is that constant rehashing of the same few (often fake or non-issue) complaints is detrimental.If you have a problem you have tracked down to the product DO NOT scream about it here and start calling it a conspiracy to destroy the market, tell Microsoft about it directly.They have a website and an email address to post incident reports and suggestions for improvements and they ARE reading the messages there.And please be nice and courteous, namecalling won't get your problem looked into any earlier (in fact, it will likely cause your message to be deleted).

[Guest wathomas777]

I Share your sentiments exactly.One thing that keeps me in check about FS2004 is that it now is modelling weather, as well as flight dynamics.So we have a simulator that simultaneously must:Model flight characteristics of a given airplane within "reasonable" accuracy,Access a worldwide database of over 22000 entries, to simulate the IFR environmentModel the planet earth using USGS survey maps or similarModel a worldwide system of roads, Rivers, etc.Keep track of numerous simultaneous flight plans and accurately portray those AI flight plans and simulate those units.Oh, and finally, after that is done, in it's spare time model realistic dynamic scenery. Just for fun. And god help us that it does that and still not offer 20 Frames per Second. What a piece of mung.I don't like bashers either, but I do think constructive criticism is essential, and in the absense of "constructive" criticism, even "non-constructive" criticism can raise light to an issue, if it is collaborated enough.

[Guest jkvato]

I see your point, but I don't agree with the way things are done.For example, there is no justification in the tone and language that people use to complain about Microsoft or others on this forum. There is plenty of room for constructive criticism and healthy debate over issues or malfunctioning products. There is no room for the way that some people choose to do this.And I don't applaud LSD for the way they are attacking this security hole in Windows. There is no honor in preying on unsuspecting or uninformed, innocent users of computers worldwide. There is nothing right about suffocating the Internet with malicious packets of data. My firewall blocks approximately one incoming connection attempt on port 135 per second due to this outbreak. If these people want to expose a security risk and make the public aware of it, there are plenty of non-abusive ways of accomplishing this.In the end, I denounce all trolls and whiners. I applaud those who seek constructive criticism and healthy debate.It would be a dull world if we all thought exactly the same way ...

[Guest SlimDady]

ohh and relating it to fs.microsoft does listen.. Im sure they visit the boards here and many other places looking for ideas for the next version. Many things that people said they wanted are in the new 2004.Also they beta test, which gives their userbase a chance to give input or find bugs. Once and a while a few things will slip past beta testers just because there are not enough to find everything. You cant expect ms to let everyone beta test.I do hope atleast this time around if any real serious issues come up that microsoft will release a patch.But i see people complaining about ther gefroce fx cards, i dont think this has anything to do with MS its with the nvidia drivers, so they should be complained at not ms. Also everyone has to say they have the problem, there is a fix go get the leaked drivers. stop complaining and just deal with it. In time it will be fixedRANT RANT.. I prob make no sence here.. ohwell

[Guest wathomas777]

LSD did not create the worm. They found the hole, they reported to microsoft, they helped microsoft verify the existance of the hole.Microsoft even specifically "thanks" them for helping them resolve this issue. They are not to blame, The jerk who created MSBLAST.exe is the villian here, and I can guarantee it did NOT come from LSD.The point I made was, if no one brought up issues, and provided "feedback" to Microsoft, where would we be?There is a subset of people here that think that any criticism of Microsoft products is nothing but a troll or whinner. And they place all the malcontents in "one basket". While there are troll and whinners that don't provide anything but a "rant" they still shed light on a potential problem. And if someone picks up that thread and runs with it.....Then it's all good.

[Guest jkvato]

OK .. thanks for clarifying.Under that light, I can appreciate LSD's actions.And I also agree that not all people who complain are trolls or whiners. I have seen some legitimate complaints get blasted to kingdom come for no good reason at all.

[TonyB 1]

While constructive discussion of problems can be postive, rants carry a lot of negative baggage. They get people upset, they sometimes turn potential purchasers off and can even color the opinion of people who thought they were enjoying the program until someone comes along and points out all the reasons they shouldn't be. Users, testers or programers can end up offended and hurt. Again, I don't have a problem with folks making observations or working to fix problems they are having. It is the way it is done that can be a negative.Tony

[Guest wathomas777]

Call them trolls, whinners, complainers, or whatever your vocabulary allows, but they are vital to the health of our hobby.With each new release of FS, we get the typical posts of how it is the best release ever, or how Microsoft makes the worst software ever. Flame wars, and names get pushed around, and the entire formum becomes a hot button until the real geniuses who don't say a word, come up with amazing peices of code and "fix" our problems without so much as a thank you.But I do want to raise a toast to all the trolls, whinners, and complainers out there. You provide an invaluable service. By shedding light on issues, you provide a target so that developers (freeware and payware alike) can provide solutions, and for this I thank you.If you ever needed an example of this, take Aug 11, and the Worm virus that attacked a lot of people yesterday. This attack came by way of a RPC "flaw" that allowed XP and Win 200X computers to be vunerable for attack by simply overruning their RPC buffer. Once overridden, the computer could be attacked. On July 16 (approx). Microsoft issued a warning to fix this hole.Those of us who didn't use Windows Update, or had purchased new machines and had not yet the opportunity, got slammed.The most visible consequence of this was your computer giving you the error that your RPC service was unexpectedly terminated, and that you would reboot in 60 sec. After that, you were infected and if you got online, you infected others.....Nice....Let me tell you, having my computer reboot a scant 4 minutes after logging into the internet got old quick.But the point of my story is how this "security bug" was found in the first place. It wasn't found by "Microsoft" but rather a bunch of users from LSD research.LSD Research is not your typical users. They are a group of individuals who "hack" for a living. They "hack" to try and find the security holes that is in operating systems. Read their report on the "hole" that allowed the MSBLAST.exe worm virus to spread like wildfire yesterday. http://lsd-pl.net/special.html.In short, these guys are a bunch of whinners, who are never satisfied with what Microsoft or anyone else gives them, and quite frankly are quite happy to show Microsoft their own shortcomings.Thank God for them. Imagine if you had been a victim of this attack, and there WASN'T a fix for it out yet. Imagine not being able to surf the web. Imagine having to disconnect your broadband for the weeks and weeks that it may have taken to come up with the problem and the fix.Because of these "whinners", Microsoft was able to work issue a patch quickly and provide a solution immediately. These Whinners allowed my XP system to be repaired and virus free in hours instead of days.So for all of those of you who want to use the name whinner and troll to apply to anyone who has any criticism at all. Just remember, it's those whinners and trolls that provide the input for the improvements for the next release. I may not like the message, nor the way that it is delivered, but I'm sure glad they're out there. Fly on.Will Thomas.