U.S. Pledge of Allegiance now illegal....

[Guest]

Well, freedom to openly practice your religion is a prime example OF freedom of speech (insofar as using that freedom does not curtail other peoples' freedom to do the same of course. Killing all those who have a different religion is definitely not exercising freedom of speech no matter what some lawyers may argue).

[Sonar5 3]

Thanks.Joe :-)http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/FrameSet.htm.http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Sonar5 3]

Hi Elrond,Good Morning. I was up too late last night, I think.I should of stated ALL People should research Supreme Court Decisions on this topic, and for that I apologize if you were offended.It still doesn't mean I am incorrect in my analogy, just that we disagree. I implied that you thought saying prayer ina Government building was not allowed. I apologize for that, since you were not very clear in that sentance.We may just have to agree to disagree, as I take My Constitution pretty literally, especially the right given to me to freely express my religion.You may disagree with this decision, but you are in the minority of United States Citizens.Your Columbine link is a weak one, IMHO, for I feel if the Current Laws were enforced on the two yutes prior to the event, it may have never occured, IMHO.Don't try and link Columbine and Guns into the pledge issue, as I will be happy to have a seperate disussion on that issue in another thread. Regards,Joe..http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Guest]

>"Amendment I >>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of >religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or >abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the >right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition >the Government for a redress of grievances." >>"OR PROHIBITING THE FREE EXCERSISE THEREOF" "OR ABRIDGING >THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH" >>Hello, Amendment #1. It may not say God, but it says >religion, and if you think the mention of God in the Pledge >of Allegiance establishes religion, you are in the absolute >minority on that one. >It might say religion but it does not mention ANY religion by name.Neither of course does the pledge (AFAIK).The pledge under this (if I understand the text that prompted this) would only be troublesome to people who either have NO religion at all or those people whose religion honours more than one god (or no god at all, such religions exist).For those the pledge is not mandatory (under the 1st ammendment it cannot be). I do understand how peer pressure (or misinterpretation of the law by teachers drawing up school regulations forcing students to participate) can pressure students into doing things they don't want to (and in this case have a right not to do).IMO it is not the pledge that is at fault (though the wording might be changed into a strictly non-religious one if that would please everyone which it won't) but the school regulations and the teachers that enforce them (or don't prevent peer pressure).I don't buy for a moment that a child would be so distraught from hearing her/his classmates mention the name of god that that would warrant something like this, more likely her parent and/or their lawyers have ulterior motives.>Here is a poll that that indicate how far you are really out >of reality on this one. >>Fox news: 89% say the 9th is WRONG on this one >http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,56312,00.html >>Oh, I know maybe our friend zogby will poll some >non-citizens who just happen to have their phone numbers >published to state they dissagree. >Polls do not make law... They might influence those who do of course.>When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for >one people to dissolve the political bands which have >connected them with another, and to assume among the powers >of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the >Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a >decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they >should declare the causes which impel them to the >separation. >still doesn't mention which god of course.As Islam says "there is no god but god"... Marvellous how 3 religions (and all the dozens of sects therein) can be going at each others' throats for thousands of years over whose is the true interpretation of the words of a god who preaches non-violence...

[Sonar5 3]

I think a political forum would be a cool idea as well. ANd thanks for posting your beliefs as well.Regards,Joe :-wave

[Guest]

>>Now Do I have a problem with someone not reciting the >pledge. On a Moral ground, yes, but not on a legal ground >as I respect their decision to not recite. >>Remember, and let me be clear on this for our good friends >that are not United States Citizens. >> When listening to your press or reading your paper, >there is no law that COMPELS or REQUIRES or MANDATES someone >to recite the Pledge. This was already settled in a case by >The Supreme Court of The United States of America prior to >the 1954 addition of the "Under God" wording. >That is exactly why in our courts the required pledge (on the bible) to tell the truth was changed.For those who are non-Christians, there is now an option to swear a pledge on the law (I think it is) instead. Similarly, the pledge on the bible when joining the military has also been changed into a non-religious form.A similar change could be executed in this case.Such would take away all religious context which people might take exception on, while leaving them free to practice their religion (where in the bible (in your case) does it state you have to publicly pledge yourself to god in school among your classmates every once in a while?).While the reasoning and execution may not be the best, the idea behind banning religious activity in schools is based on preventing peer pressure and ill-informed schoolteachers from forcing those who do not wish to participate from doing so.I got some religious schooling. The priest didn't force us to take part in religious activities even during those hours, though he did ask we learn the prayers and read the bible with him. He respected those who were there to learn and not to pray. Maybe religious zealots can learn a lesson from that. That catholic priest made my ideas about religion, learning tollerance above religion as any priest should.He knew (whether I believe the same or not) in his faith that even those who did not follow him in prayer would come before his god and be admitted if only they turned out good people and that's what he tried to make us into.

[Sonar5 3]

Thanks for posting that info as I agree with getting back to the framers intent as well.The 9th Circuit is a joke in the appellate system, and that is why so many of their decisions are overturned.I think the framers would be rolling in their graves if they could see the assults being made on our Constitution in order to further certain agendas biting at the root of our countries future, and thank goodness we have a Great Supreme Court.Hit the POlls in November, people, as it will certainly decide which direction this country will go in, and the fact that these issues are in the forefront and the Majority of people agree this case is silly is a great opportunity for the Senate to get some serious hand slapping by the American Public just in time for November. And yes, I believe this is a result of vacancies being held up usurping the Executive Branch's power in the Constitution.Regards,Joe :-wave.Oshkosh Pictures From 2001 (Part 1) 78 Pics in Frames with 1mb in ThumbnailsHigh speed connection Recommended:http://home.attbi.com/~flypics1/FrameSet.htm.Oshkosh Pictures From 2001 (Part 2) 106 Pics in Frames with 1.5mb in ThumbnailsHigh speed connection recommended:http://home.attbi.com/~flypics2/FrameSet.htm.Picture Gallery of My Flight in a 1945 SNJ-6 on June 1st, 2002Joliet, Illinoishttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/FrameSet.htm.http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Guest Jeff S KDTW]

Chris -As a side note, be prepared for all of the lawyer jokes and accusatory finger pointing when you cross over to the "other side." :-)Regards,http://home.earthlink.net/~snyders2000/T2.jpg

[Guest lawyerpilot]

I know, I think I can handle the ridicule at $300 an hour. :) And, if I get ridicule for the $300, I will remind them that it takes 3 years of school, another 3 to 4 of being an associate billing 2400 hours a year (that's 5-7000 work hours), and $120k in loans (or family funds) to become competent enough to interpret the research and answer the very life threatening question (i.e. How much can I collect from my neighbor when his apples fall onto my property without permission?) that they expect me to answer correctly. Being an attorney is not about knowing the answer immediately for everything (except if you are a litigator), it is about being able to discern the useful from the worthless when you need to research what that answer is. And (not to sound like a movie), once in awhile you actually feel like you are making a difference, especially when you are dealing with cases with wide reaching implications, or when you take a minute to think about what situations in our daily lives do not involve the law (the answer is next to nothing). So, really attorneys have the most useful job in the world right now. We solve everyones problems. In fact, we get heckled, but everytime there is a problem, where does everyone turn first? Their attorney... They only start ######in once they get the bill, even if it turned out in their favor. Which is why you work on retainder. But, after working for five years on Wall Street as an International Equity Trader for Merrill and Goldman Sachs, starting a broadcast company that I still own, and doing a multitude of other things since I was released from the womb, this is one of the most challenging and rewarding things that I have done. I get to interact with people all day, provide advice, research, problem solve, afford flying as a hobby, and most importantly I have finally found a career that may actually keep my attention for more than 5 minutes.......until the next business investment roles along! :)In parting, Avsim is great! The people in and around Avsim are great! (Maybe a little grumpy once in a while-remember it is only a hobby! A hobby is something you do for fun!) Simming is great! The Law is awesome!Carpe Diem,Christopher Michael BraunP4 1.8768 ram 80 gig hardriveVisiontek Ti4 4600CH yoke/pedals19" inch monitor-Soundblaster PCI 512Win XPPrivate PilotAOPALawyerPilots Bar Association"Men without dreams are never free, twas thus this way and thus will ever be."

[Sonar5 3]

Now Jeff,It is no secret that I get most of my jokes from my Attorney Friends. I figure that's what all that free time is for during boring time. Joke Generation. I have a great respect for the Attorney's I know.Regards,Joe :-wave..http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Guest]

Hi Joe,Actually I fully agree with this decision. And I am in the minority of US citizens. My wife also thinks that fifty pound boxes of chocolates should be the law of the land, but I'm sure you and I as men would strongly disagree. :-) As stated previously: Polls and Politics do not laws uphold (make, however, is another issue).As for Columbine: its wholly appropriate. Sure its a gun issue (among many others). But its a peer pressure issue much, much more (as widely reported to the benefit of mental health understanding in this regard). Just as this issue is also one of peer pressure and religious persecution.Don't try to unlink the reason behind the separation of Church and State. Its ALL about freedom from state sanctioned religious based pressure. No one struck down the ability to express your enthusiasm for your country or your God(s) here in the least."Under God" was struck down: not the Pledge of Allegiance.And yes, I too was up way too late last night! Strong and imminently interesting topics on the forums here lately...Take care,http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest]

Great post Jeroen... And I too now respect that unknown teacher/priest.Take care, http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/elrondlogo.gifhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/flyurl.gif

[Guest Jeff S KDTW]

I have a book of lawyer jokes that my sister gave to me years ago. Some of them are pretty funny.Regards,http://home.earthlink.net/~snyders2000/name.jpg

[Guest lawyerpilot]

I like your new sig, more efficient, but still distinguished.P4 1.8768 ram 80 gig hardriveVisiontek Ti4 4600CH yoke/pedals19" inch monitor-Soundblaster PCI 512Win XPPrivate PilotAOPALawyerPilots Bar Association"Men without dreams are never free, twas thus this way and thus will ever be."

[Guest Jeff S KDTW]

Chris -You're preaching to the choir. ;-)Regards,http://home.earthlink.net/~snyders2000/name.jpg