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Nick Dobda

Routing queston

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I've been trying to fly a route around the US and hit every state along the way. I gotta keep my flights between 80 -200 miles so that I can complete them in an hour or two at night before bed. I've come to the point where some of these legs there no commercial routes for, so I have to come up with my own route, which isn't a big deal, I just have one question.

 

Tonight's flight is from Roanoke to Norfolk. I went to the sectional chart to come up with a route, and I settled on the following:

 

From Roanoke

 

HOKEE2.LYH.V16.FAK.TERKS2

 

The HOKEE2 drops you off at HOKEE, from that point go direct to LYH and jump on the V16 airway to FAK, which is part of the TERKS2 into Norfolk.

 

I seem to have trouble with the V16... In the DEP section of the FMC I can enter in the HOKEE2, click onto the legs page and go direct to LYH from there...

 

then would I enter in V16 into the via... then FAK in the to? Does that work?

 

I could enter in FAK into the next TO line and get a direct in the VIA... but I want to travel that V16.

 

Does any of this make sense or am I confused?

 

In the ARR I would enter in TERKS2 as the Star, but them drop off MOL on the LEGS page and pick it up instead on FAK... is this correct?

 

Thanks!

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Does any of this make sense or am I confused?

 

This is explained in Tutorial #1. Have you flown it?

 

As far as the STAR goes. Select the STAR, EXECute it, and then go to the LEGS page. On that page, select FAK and then click on the line where FAK exists as part of the "core" route (the part that you entered by hand earlier). The intricacies of manipulating flight plans is described in Tutorial #2.

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For what it might be worth, the fltplan.com web site is a useful source of routing information for GA flights in the US. One needs to register to use the site, but it has a lot of useful information and a nice iOS app, all costing nothing.

 

A common routing for KROA->KORF is FAK HCM TERKS, all direct. Given the short length of this flight, the alternate route of FAK TERKS2 seems a bit ambitious in terms of the climb, as the expected crossing altitude at FAK in the TERKS2 is FL210. Maybe doable, but would that make sense in terms of fuel utilization?

 

John

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A common routing for KROA->KORF is FAK HCM TERKS, all direct. Given the short length of this flight, the alternate route of FAK TERKS2 seems a bit ambitious in terms of the climb, as the expected crossing altitude at FAK in the TERKS2 is FL210. Maybe doable, but would that make sense in terms of fuel utilization?

 

Good point. PCT and the Roanoke and Norfolk TRACONs are all pretty active when it comes to issuing routes that are better for all involved. My last clearance out of ROA got the entire route (MOL V143 HOAGE) stripped down to "direct CSN direct." Going from PCT to ORF, Potomac stripped the CSN V286 CCV V1 ORF out in favor of CSN WAIKS. So, given that, I wouldn't be surprised to see them set someone up for a simple route like the one you listed (and if that's from FltPlan.com, it's backed by actual use).

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Yes, I've flown the tutorials. I tend to write up questions and leave them here while I'll open up another window and search for the answer. I found answers satisfactory enough to pull back the post, but I must have sent it anyway. Sorry about that, I'll type them up in notepad off this site so it doesn't happen again.

 

However, every post on here, no matter how trivial typically invokes responses from everybody, and every bit of information, every tip people throw out there helps in the learning process.

 

The source of the question was what to call the jetway itself. Tutorial 1 (and 2) were flown in the UK with UK SIDS & STARS. I fly in the US, and last nights routing between the two airports SIDs & STARs was attempted using a section map. I've read that some veteran simmers get upset when people pull generic routes off the internet without having a clue, so I thought I'd start taking a shot at coming up with my own route. The (jetway? On the section map, it says V-16-260 and on the map it runs from VOR LYH to VOR FAK. I am learning on the fly here, so I wasn't sure what to type in. I wasn't sure that line between V-16-260 is even a jetway, because on the map it looks like a bearing between two VORs. Surely I could have dug around to get my answers, but I thought I'd ask here and see what happens.  Not having the proper education, I don't know what the -260 means) - anyway I figured I would just try V16 in the FMC when I got home instead of asking it here. So in doing so, I learned that V16 is technically correct, and it works (as it should). And that indeed, that line isn't a direct line from VOR to VOR, there were waypoints along the way that showed up in the FMC that (at least I can't identify) on the section map.

John points out things that I haven't even thought about, and will help in the future. Kyle points out that no matter what your route is, if there's a better route, (or a preferred route) it might get changed.

 

It was an FMC question, that's why I asked it here. I have a ton of other questions about section maps, airspaces and whatnot, but that's not PMDG's responsibility to answer, so I'll search elsewhere for answers.

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Yes, I've flown the tutorials. I tend to write up questions and leave them here while I'll open up another window and search for the answer. I found answers satisfactory enough to pull back the post, but I must have sent it anyway. Sorry about that, I'll type them up in notepad off this site so it doesn't happen again.

 

No worries. I wasn't trying to be fussy. It's just easier to discuss these things if someone has flown the tutorials, as they have a base set of knowledge to play off of. Otherwise, someone might not understand the terms I'd use.

 

The rest of your post touches on some tougher topics, because they're mostly addressed as part of an entire (instrument) rating's worth of knowledge, but for simming, you don't necessarily need to dive too deep. Firstly, technically, you can plan and file whatever you want. ATC obviously appreciates the effort to look up any Pref Routes, but that doesn't mean you can't get inventive. In some cases, that's highly encouraged. Say weather "shuts off" one of the departure streams used for a Pref Route. What will you do then? That's where intentionally doing something non-standard may help.

 

The next concept is airways. The generic term is 'airways', but the specific terms are Victor Airway (any route with a 'V') for airways used below FL180, Jet Airway (any route with a 'J') for airways above FL180, Q Routes ('Q' prefix, blue line) for "newer" routes that aren't tied to land-based navaids (RNAV) above FL180, and T Routes ('T' prefix, blue line) for RNAV routes that are used to avoid congested airspace below FL180. Clear as mud?

 

As far as the numbers go, any time you see more than one listed, it's simply a routing overlap. You'll see it on the Interstate Highway System as well, but you're probably just more used to it there so you don't notice it. As an example, if you're driving on I-81 (down near ROA, actually), you'll pass through a section of 81 where I-64 shares the road for a few miles before splitting back off as its own independent road surface. It's marked like this (the left sign is showing where I-64 West splits off / East joins, whereas the sign on the right is showing that I-81 is being shared by I-64 in the direction towards Winchester - fun fact: where my grandparents live, actually):

 

320px-I-81_Exit_191_Sign_Bridge_original

 

Another fun fact: if you drive south of Roanoke, you end up on a section of I-81 marked as South, but I-77 marked as North (picture of the road signs). If you look at a map, it makes sense, but I always laugh when I drive through that section. And by this point, I'm sure all of you are wondering what my definition of 'fun' is...

 

In aeronautical charting, this would be listed as I64-81 like the low enroute chart (or "low chart" - note: "sectional" is used for the VFR version) showed an airway as V16-260. You'll want to use the airway that best fits your route, but since you were only flying on the "shared" section, then you could have used either in the VIA part. It only becomes an issue when you're flying on the segments that aren't shared. If my route took me all the way to HPW from LYH, as an example, I would want to use V260 in order to avoid having to type LYH V16 RIC V260 HPW. Using the proper option for the shared section, you'd only need to type LYH V260 HPW.

 

For what it's worth, your questions have been driving some good conversations here over the past few days. Keep it up. Just keep in mind, sometimes people might ask if you've read something, or flown the tutorial to gauge your base knowledge (thus my question earlier) of the concept.

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Again, so much insight without any google search effort. That link to preferred routes I would not have found on my own anytime soon. The paragraph on airways, Victor airways vs. Jet airways clears a bunch up... in fact skyvector has a whole 'nother map for jetways that I didn't know to look for till you mentioned J airways (there are no J airways on the maps I was looking at). And hey looka there, there are Q airways on that map too.

The more I dig, the more see that there is a ton of information out there that pilots just have stored in their heads. I will constantly have to remind myself to take tiny bites at a time, and becoming proficient is going to take a lot of time, especially because all of the learning it is going to come from trial, error, google, and this site (and this sites archives).

 

Sucks cause I just want to flip a switch and know everything. Patience.

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Kyle, how do you not have an instrument rating? You're better at explaining this stuff than most CFIIs. 

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Again, so much insight without any google search effort. That link to preferred routes I would not have found on my own anytime soon. The paragraph on airways, Victor airways vs. Jet airways clears a bunch up... in fact skyvector has a whole 'nother map for jetways that I didn't know to look for till you mentioned J airways (there are no J airways on the maps I was looking at). And hey looka there, there are Q airways on that map too.

 

Yeah. You were looking at the LO charts if you only saw V airways (and T Routes). The HI charts show the J airways (and Q routes).

 

 

The more I dig, the more see that there is a ton of information out there that pilots just have stored in their heads. I will constantly have to remind myself to take tiny bites at a time, and becoming proficient is going to take a lot of time, especially because all of the learning it is going to come from trial, error, google, and this site (and this sites archives).

 

It takes quite a lot of time to wrap your head around. I began to pick up a lot of the nav concepts probably as far back as 1995ish. Granted, it wasn't a full time study, but some things just sink better in over time, much like understanding the FARs. The base is pretty simple to pick up, but intimate knowledge of the whole system takes a lot of time.

 

Kyle, how do you not have an instrument rating? You're better at explaining this stuff than most CFIIs. 

 

haha - thanks! It's a long story, but the gist of it is money along with a few issues with bad timing and life distractions (i.e. "I MUST HAVE THAT NEW, LOADED CAR RIGHT NOW BECAUSE REASONS!!!" - I mean, it's a fun car, but...dumb move if you want to fly... :fool: ).

 

Luckily, I've had the sim and contracting with the FAA to really learn a TON of stuff, so all of the training I've had has been pretty easy and is more a matter of checking boxes. Having a leg up on explaining probably comes from having taught computer classes after studying some psych in college (and having a boss who was heavily into psych and learning theory at the time), and getting the chance to experience a lot of the stuff most CFIs only read about (the reason behind initial climb altitudes, traffic management concepts - partially why you can get a "clearance void if not off by" time when departing from an uncontrolled field, and so on).

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