Best Flight Dynamics I've seen

[Guest av84fun]

<>This sub-thread had clearly to do with MSFS not having obtained FAA certification so your interjection of FNPT II standards...whatever they might be...is a bit of a curve ball.<>Not at all. FS9 has an instructor station that could easily be customized. No problem.<I didn't say that such articles suggested that FS was "suitable for logging time." What I wrote was that the Navy and a large number of highly respected flight schools are using MSFS for training purposes.Below is the first hit from a GOOGLE search. You can also search the archives of AOPA's Pilot magazine or Flying Magazine...but I don't understand why anyone should need to since this topic has received such major, worldide discussion here at AVSIM as well as across a broad spectrum of the aviation and flight sim press."The Navy in January of 2000 started to issue a customized version of the Microsoft Flight Simulator to all student pilots and undergraduates enrolled in Naval Reserve Officer Training Courses at 65 colleges. The office of the Chief of Naval Education and Training has also installed Flight Simulator on high-powered Pentium III PC workstations with 29-inch screens at the Naval Air Station in Corpus Christi, Texas, and plans to install it at two other bases in Florida. The decision to include the game in the training curriculum stems from the results of a research project conducted by the Navy last summer. Scott Dunlap, head of the Assessment Project Office for the Chief of Naval Education and Training in Pensacola, Fla., said the study found that students who use microsimulation products during early flight training tend to have higher scores than students who do not use the software. Dunlap credits LTJG Herb Lacey, now a naval aviator, with jump-starting the Navy

[Guest av84fun]

<>To the contrary, I knew exactly what I meant. The scenario given me was a take off and then a dead engine at 200 ft. Departure clearances nearly always contain the instruction to FLY RUNWAY HEADING...NOT RUNWAY TRACK....so the usefulness than you are struggling to comprehend would be to comply with an ATC clearance. But do note (copied below) that I wrote "IF MAINTAINING RUNWAY HEADING WAS A PRIORITY"...which carefully provided for the potential that the takeoff was not on an IFR clearance...and/or that the clearance didn't require the maintenance of runway HEADING.So, I don't know where your chocolate teapot nonsense came from...but you just stick with it sir and you'll continue to learn a lot about aviation in this thread.Jim<>

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

I didn't read anything about an ATC clearance. What are you referring to there? Here is what you wrote, not what you through you wrote:>>Since your scenario imposes a crosswind, it would be doubly important >>to maintain a bank into the wind (and the good engine) if maintaining >>runway heading was a priority.So you note the crosswind in the scenario, bank into the wind to maintain a heading? Doesn't make sense. Your heading is where you are facing, not where you are going. If you want to maintain runway heading you just bug the DI before you roll and keep it there. The crosswind is irrelevant.BTW, the bank is not to counter the crosswind, it is reduce the slip. It has nothing to do with crosswinds. To maintain your track you alter your heading (the direction you are facing) into the wind.There you've learnt two things - lol!

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

Do you believe what they write in marketing press releases then? It is obvious you hadn't actually absorbed my post. I already commented on the navy thing. This could be a very productive debate if you included your opinions and experience in your own words rather than wikipedia, press releases, etc. If I want to know what the internet says I'll don my own Google goggles.Where is the instructor station in FS?I can't see the point of starting a debate about certification and then suggesting that FS is good enough because people are using it even though it isn't certified. What does that prove? It is a throwaway line. If it isn't loggable or recognized as sufficient for training then it isn't, by definition a usable sim for flight training. The only non-loggable sims that are useful for training are for MCCs.

[Guest billionaire_bob]

Ok, you

[Guest billionaire_bob]

>Maintaining the runway heading is about as much use as a chocolate teapot! You mean maintain the runway track. If you were referring to my post.. For the sake of this experiment, I think maintaining the runway heading will yield the largest angle between the longitudinal axis and the ground track. (assuming the crosswind is set 90 degrees to the RW heading). But of course it's always better to maintain the runway track in real life, at least when flying VFR! ;)

[Guest av84fun]

<>You need to work on your reading comprehension. I didn't say that an ATC clearance was NESECCARILY part of the scenario. I merely stated..." if maintaining runway heading was a priority."And then you jumped in with your boneheaded remark about maintaing runway heading being as useful as a chocolate teapot.Then, to correct your rather impudent remark, I merely pointed out that the vast majority of ATC clearances contain the instruction to maintain runway heading...so as to point out to you why your teapot crack belongs in a different sort of pot.<>I hereby nominate the above as the most nonsensical post in this soon-to-be-legendary thread.Let me disect your absurdities one by one.1. "So you note the crosswind in the scenario, bank into the wind to maintain a heading? Doesn't make sense."It would make more sense if you understood aviation more thoroughly. I said bank into the wind AND THE GOOD ENGINE. You need to understand that when an engine fails, the aircraft will yaw toward the dead engine becuase of , most importantly, differential thrust created by the good engine. That yaw will force a HEADING CHANGE that would normally be wise to counteract. One does so by the application of rudder on the side of the good engine (dead foot/dead engine).In fact, one widely recongnized engine out techniques is to STEP ON THE BUG...which means that with the left engine out, the airplane will CHANGE HEADINGS to the LEFT with the commensurate apprearance of the Heading Bug moving to the RIGHT. So, you STEP ON THE BUG with your right rudder. And you do so, sir, in an effort to MAINTAIN A HEADING rather than to let the airplane fly you in a continuous left circle.As far as the BANK is concerned, you should know that adopting an approximate 5 degree bank into the good engine serves to offset the ADVERSE YAW (what a chuckle having to use THAT phrase is) created by the dead engine scenario. After an engine fails, if we bank towards the good engine, the horizontal component of the tilted lift opposes the yawing into the dead engine. So, IF YOU DID want to maintain RUNWAY HEADING (NOT track) either because you were instructed to or because you just bloody well WANTED to, with an inoperative engine, you MUST impose force on the good engine rudder AND unless you simply wanted to make things as difficult as possible for yourself, you would ALSO bank into the good engine. Therefore, banking...in this scenario is an aid to maintaining HEADING.2. :( banking into the good engine so as to lessen the rudder forces that otherwise would be required.3. <>A. I didn't say the bank was to "counter the crosswind" but it DOES.B. WHAT SLIP??????????????? Do we have to go back to the earlier part of this thread and again explain what a slip is? A failed engine does NOT induce a SLIP, sir. It induces a YAW and the correct procedure is to apply rudder force to the RIGHT (if the left engine is dead (as in the stated scenario) and to use RIGHT aileron. So, the rudder/aileron inputs are on the SAME SIDE and NOT cross-controlled which is required to meet the definition of a SLIP!! GEEESH!4. <>I didn't say anything about maintaining TRACK....YOU DID!!But you know what? I think my mother had a chocolate teapot when I was a kid. And it WAS useful... I ATE IT!:-)

[Guest av84fun]

<>If you would read more carefully, you will see that I have REPEATEDLY posted my own personal experiences in the use of PC-based sims.The "internet" is not a SOURCE to be considered authoritative or not. It is an INDEX of underlying sources. The underlying sources I have relied on in this thread include, but are not limited to: AOPA Pilot, Flying Magazine and NASA.What are YOUR sources leading to the conclusion that MSFS is not in widespread use as a flight training tool at, for example, the United States Navy, the United States Air Force and FlightSaftey International...just to name a FEW?<From the MSFS web site."Flight Instructor's PanelFlight Simulator includes a training tool called the Flight Instructor's panel, which uses Flight Simulator's multiplayer features to allow an instructor to monitor another pilot. While the student flies, the instructor sees the student's airplane overlaid on a moving map. More importantly, the instructor can change the weather, fail the student airplane's engine, or fail instruments or systems on the student's airplane without interrupting the flight

[Guest av84fun]

<>I think he was referring to my post, Bob.But you are correct that VFR, absent any controller instructions to the contrary, it is best to maintain runway TRACK so as not to encroach on inbound traffic.Regards,Jim

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

When your in a hole stop digging. It works wonders.>>STEP ON THE BUGNearly correct it is "Step on the ball" actually. Stepping on the bug in an abnormal situation is a dumb idea as it makes assumptions about your checks, flying accuracy and state of the vacum.>>That yaw will force a HEADING CHANGE that would normally be wise to >>counteract. One does so by the application of rudder on the side of >>the good engine (dead foot/dead engine).You are arbitarily exchanging the initial reaction with the stable state to suit your argument. Your initial action as you describe would be to use rudder and 5 deg of bank. Once you have accomplished this your heading should as normal to maintain the track you intended to follow in the first place. However, the use of bank is optional and not recommended as an initial reaction to an EFATO as it is simpler to fly wings level whilst you accelerate from VTOSS to blueline, confirm'n'feather, then clean the a/c. Once you are in this stable state it is time to optimise your climb and add a little bank. Something else you've learnt.>>A failed engine does NOT induce a SLIP, sir. It induces a YAW and the >>correct procedure is to apply rudder force to the RIGHTIncorrect. Minus 100 points. Put on the pointy hat and sit in the cornder! A failed engine corrected wings level with rudder results in a sideslip (the relative wind striking the side of the a/c). See Marco's diagram. The slight bank to the live engine helps line the fuselage up with the relative wing, reduces sideslip and reduces the rudder input (reduces Vmc in other words).>> So, the rudder/aileron inputs are on the SAME SIDE and NOT >>cross-controlled which is required to meet the definition of a SLIP!! >>GEEESH!Two things. Firstly you conveinently chose to ignore that fact that I said that adding bank reduces sidelsip. Secondly I see your personal definition of slip is only when cross controlled. Cross controls cause slip, so do other things like a normal balanced turn for example. I make that a total of four new things you've learnt today. And you wonder why Rico popped the question.Anyway enough, this is like taking candy from a baby and is now boring.

[Guest Adverse Yawn]

I thought the instructor's station would involve the standard FS dialogs. As I have already expressed, I think FS is deficient in those areas. You may think it is a simple job radically change it. The PM example is heading in the right direction but I'm not convinced it is as good as the ELITE system which is cheaper than FS once you realise that you don't need super-duper grpahics cards and top of the range PCs.We seemed to have moved from a Motus to somebody pointing at a screen. I thought we were talking about flying training not CBTs. Please stick to point.

[Guest billionaire_bob]

>>B. WHAT SLIP??????????????? Do we have to go back to the earlier part of this thread and again explain what a slip is? A failed engine does NOT induce a SLIP, sir. It induces a YAW and the correct procedure is to apply rudder force to the RIGHT (if the left engine is dead (as in the stated scenario) and to use RIGHT aileron. So, the rudder/aileron inputs are on the SAME SIDE and NOT cross-controlled which is required to meet the definition of a SLIP!! GEEESH!>>A failed engine does NOT induce a SLIP, sir. It induces a YAW and the >>correct procedure is to apply rudder force to the RIGHT>Incorrect. Minus 100 points. Put on the pointy hat and sit in the cornder! A failed engine corrected wings level with rudder results in a sideslip (the relative wind striking the side of the a/c). See Marco's diagram. The slight bank to the live engine helps line the fuselage up with the relative wing, reduces sideslip and reduces the rudder input (reduces Vmc in other words).This argument is becoming a 'Tempest in a (chocolate) Teapot' . :-smile12You're *both* right because both definitions of a 'sideslip' are in use here. A side-slip is both a flight condition when the controls are crossed -the traditional definition familar to most pilots.. and it's also the term used to describe when the longitudinal axis is not aligned with the relative wind/flight path, in the more general sense. So yes, it's possible to be in a side-slip without crossing the flight controls, using the latter definition.

[LAdamson 240]

>If it isn't loggable or recognized as>sufficient for training then it isn't, by definition a usable>sim for flight training. Who's definition? A flight training program that often aired on the Discovery (ex) Wings channel, always used MSFS for visual aids to it's students.BTW-- has Elite improved it's topography for the Rocky Mtn. region of the western U.S., or does MSFS with mesh upgrades still run circles around it? L.Adamson

[Guest billionaire_bob]

For what it's worth, here's how the FAA Flight Training Handbook defines a slip:"A slip is a descent with one wing lowered and the airplane's longitudinal axis at an angle to the flightpath."..which kinda restricts the meaning to the cross-controlled condition/manuever that everybody is familiar with.But I think more generally, it can also occur without "one wing lowered" or a "descent." For example, MSFS itself defines parameters "due to sideslip angle" that are irrespective of whether or not the airplane is banked or descending.

[Guest av84fun]

<>You should take your own advice.>>STEP ON THE BUGNearly correct it is "Step on the ball" actually. Stepping on the bug in an abnormal situation is a dumb idea as it makes assumptions about your checks, flying accuracy and state of the vacum.>>No, sir...actually those of us who have received more advanced training than you seem to have (if any at all) know to use redundant methods and not to rely upon ANY one guage or indicator.Stepping on the ball is ONE such method. But so too, is stepping on the BUG. At least those poor saps at Flight Safety International...where I have taken repeated Cessna Twin Series recurrency training...think it is NOT a dumb idea. But then, of course, you seem to think that it is dumb for FSI to use MSFS for training purposes...but they do...in spite of your vastly superior knowledge.<>No, I pointed out where you were exactly WRONG and then you, quite laughably, recite my own advice back to me. ROFLMAO.<>Well, what you are trying to teach people is how to kill themselves on an engine failure during take off. Your quite misguided procedure is to:confirm and featherthe clean up.According to Cessna POH for my (former T310) the procedure is to1. Full Rich2. Props forward3. Throttles full forward4. GEAR UP...SIR...NOT AFTER FEATHERING as your post implies5. FEATHER6. ESTABLISH BANK 5 DEGREES TOWARD OPERATING ENGINE...THEREFORE, THE PROCEDURE IS NOT OPTIONAL!Not until procedures 8 and 9 is airspeed even MENTIONED in the checklist whereas it was mentioned FIRST in yours.But of course...you know better.<>First, that's not what you first proposed so again, you try to dance around your own errors. What you said was that an engine failure causes a slip...period. It does NOT...period. It causes a YAW and a YAW results in a SKID...not a SLIP.Trying to correct the YAW with rudder only will only ruduce or eliminate the SKID...not a SLIP. Read below from yet another noted expert in the field...obtained proudly from the internet...that you so disdain...because authoritative commentary derived therefrom so often prove you wrong!<>Thanks for the best laugh I've had in months YAWN. Helps line the fuselage up with the relative wing??? Do you fly in airplanes with jacknifing fuselages?? LOL And which "relative wing" are you talking about...the aunt or the uncle??? ROFLMAO!!! And REDUCES VMC IN OTHER WORDS?? Now you REALLY blew it. VMC is a FIXED VALUE. Nothing you can do the the airplane modifies VMC...unless you redesign it.<>A pointless remark but we move on.<>That's not my personal definition but that of the vast majority of aviation experts...necessarily excluding you. And please post your authority on the preposterous proposition that slip is achieved in a "normal balanced turn." Giving you latitude for our respective versions of the english language, I assume that by "balanced turn" you mean what we call here a "coordinated turn." But your problem is your inability to understand that a slip MUST involve UNCOORDINATED control inputs.<>Yes, boredom is common among those who rebel at the acquisition of knowledge so I am sure you are bored. But the merits of our respective posts and the judgement about who is taking candy from whom is not ours to make. It is for others to decided.(and I made that remark up all by myself without consultation with your loathed internet.)Jim"The opposite of a skid is slip. If the rudder is not moved at all, but the airplane is put into a bank, then part of the lift of the wings will be offset and push the airplane off in the direction of the bank. The previous forward motion and the new lateral motion will combine to change the direction in which the plane is moving. Unlike the skid, this means that the direction of motion of the airplane actually has changed. So banking all by itself makes a turn in the travel of the airplane. However, just as in a skid, it also means that the plane is again flying sideways, since the rudder has not swung the plane around to face the new direction of motion. But since the tail of an airplane acts like a weathervane, the airplane will tend, as it moves in the new direction, to weathervane around to face that direction. This makes for sloppy motion and excessive drag just as much as with a skid. However, what if one does not really want to head in a new direction, but just to move the plane laterally somewhat (produce a sway)? This can happen when approaching a runway and discovering that the plane isn't lined up quite right. You don't want to go off in a new direction, but you want to move to the right or left slightly. A slip can accomplish that; and so that the plane will not weathervane around into a new direction, the rudder can be turned slightly in the opposite direction, so that the plane will keep pointing correctly, as the bank actually moves the plane over as desired."