That RealAir 172! Yeah!

[turner112 52]

Ok, a way-belated kudos to the team.And to think, it's free, and I've never tried it, considering I've been training in a 172.., (though on hiatus for a few years)I've never been able to get the default 172 to feel like I'd have expected... always felt kind of "rigid" and fast.However, after reading some of the 172/GA threads going on, I tried the RealAir 172... wow.First time up in it, I decided to do the simple pattern according to my "real-world" training... and it worked like a charm.Up to 500 feet, quick level for traffic check, right climbing turn to 850 feet, level, reduce power, right turn to downwind, power down and flaps at mid-field, down to 700 feet, right turn to base, flaps down a notch, check traffic, right turn to final at 500 feet, final flaps, 65 knots, slowing to 60, cross threshold... easy landing, turnoff at first taxiway.Wish it were that easy in the real thing ;) Maybe it is.What a difference a good flight model makes.I'll most likely check out the Flight1 172 when my lessons pick up again, since the VC looks incredible and the reviews seem to favor it pretty universally. Until I get my TrackIR I'll be playing with this one! ---Andrew

[Guest BOPrey]

"Wish it were that easy in the real thing ;) Maybe it is."I thought that you said you were training on the 172.

[turner112 52]

I am, but it doesn't always seem so easy ;)Andrew

[Ken Pryor 0]

I use the Real Air 172 all the time and love it. Much better than the default one. Now, if I could just come up with the cash to go try the real thing... ;)KP

[Guest BOPrey]

OK.What is your opinion on the flight dynamic of the RealAir 172 using the real 172 as a base?

[turner112 52]

To fly it "by the numbers" - ie by what I do in the real-world aircraft - seems pretty good. Takeoff is a little "jumpy" (it seems to leap off the ground) but that may just be me.Through the pattern, it's the first time I've experienced what felt like such an accurate portrayal.However, without actually feeling the forces in motion, specifically turn coordination, it's hard to say.Plus, I fly (flew) a different model 172 in real life, so that's a factor.That said, it's a big improvement toward feeling like the real thing over the default, which seems to be a little too powerful and a little too unstable.I only have about 45 hours in the real thing, so I'm sure someone with vastly more time can comment a bit better.Andrew

[Guest av84fun]

Everything RealAir does is first rate. But I don't much care for your pattern flying methodology.<>Never heard of that procedure and strongly disagree with it. One of the most dangerous moments in flight is when you are close to the ground after take off. If you have an engine failure you have limited options and what you want is as much altitude as possible as soon as possible. Levelling off at 500 agl is the opposite of what you should do and there isn't going to be any traffic as close to the departure end of the runway as you should be upon reaching 500 agl and if there is, you probably won't see it during a "quick level" <>You are describing the crosswind turn here. There is no "target altitude" on the crosswind. If you are climbing out in a 172 at VY and flying a properly close pattern you will turn onto the downwind before reaching 850 agl. <>In most wind conditions, you will need to reduce full take off power before reaching mid-field. An 850 agl pattern atltitude is quite low...in the U.S. anyway, where 1000 agl is more common. I would not recommend leaving pattern altitude at mid field. Better to leave pattern altitude at the "Key Postion" (45 degrees off your intended landing zone)and possibly not until the base leg turn depending on winds.<< flaps down a notch, check traffic, right turn to final at 500 feet, final flaps, 65 knots, slowing to 60, cross threshold... easy landing, turnoff at first taxiway.>>I don't like the turn to final at 500 feet. Too high. In a properly close pattern a half mile final is PLENTY far off the approach end and at 500 fpm which is a typical descent profile down to the flare, and at around 60 kts, you will have lost only 250 ft in a half mile and will be WAY too high.I would hold pattern altitude until the Key Position and then descend close to 700 fpm from that point through the base-to-final turn AGAIN DEPENDING ON WIND so as to be at about 300 agl at the half mile final position. From that altitude and distance you can maintain a standard rate of descent...adjudting for wind as necessary and land it nicely PAST the numbers. (landing "on the numbers" is old time "hangar bragging", unnecessarily macho and not practiced by any competent pilot that I know.)Just my 2 cents. Happy flying.Regards,Jim

[elche 5]

"Everything RealAir does is first rate."Absolutely true! I have the Spit, and is stunning!! The Fligh1 172 I don't like too much though, it just feels way too stable!About the circuit...My check starts at 300 agl. First, Fuel pump off, Ps and Ts in the green. 400 agl look left, center, right for traffic, 500 agl begin crosswind turn ( in Aus you are not allowed to turn below 500 agl).Bankstown circuit is usually busy and full of 152s. So in the Archer its a steep climb to 400 agl (usually takes about 15 seconds), shallow out the climb cut a bit of power and extend the upwind leg to around 700agl to maintain seperation.Like Jim says, there is no target altitude on the cross wind. Depending on traffic, I reach 1000agl just before turning downwind. I have been forced to extend my upwind to 1000agl several times due to slower traffic. On the "Trauma"-hawk and 152s there is a very short crosswind leg, usually only reaching 700-800agl, any higher than this and I would be too far from the runway. In the Duchess it's just a continuous Rate 1 turn from Upwind to Downwind, things happen really fast in this 1!!End of downwind (when runway is at 45 degrees behind the wing), It's Carbi-ON and power @ 1500rpm then maintain the nose attitude while turning onto Base, Speed will bleed from 110 down to 80 on Base, 1 stage flaps, at 650agl begin turn onto finals (again, in Aus we are not allowed to turn below 500agl). On finals second stage flaps, Third stage only when y r sure you are going to make it.Bankstown can be quite tricky due to it's 3 parallel runways, and speed management is crutial! If you leave your turn onto finals too late, and you are slow, you risk entering a spin due to the urge to over bank the turn to avoid crossing finals.

Have a great Day/Night where ever you are! :-wave

http://www.3dflite.com/dac/img/BANNER-soccer.gif Student Pilot - YSBKC152/Tomahawk/Warrior/Archer/Duchess66.3 hrs Total

[turner112 52]

Hi Jim... Ok, this might be a long one!Let me preface this by saying my instructor was 67 and was pretty darn sharp, so I went by what he said.... he'd been flying a long time and I trusted him.This is from South Jersey Regional, at 53 feet. Pattern altitude is 853 feet..http://www.airnav.com/airport/KVAY------------------------------------------Everything RealAir does is first rate. But I don't much care for your pattern flying methodology.<>Never heard of that procedure and strongly disagree with it. One of the most dangerous moments in flight is when you are close to the ground after take off. If you have an engine failure you have limited options and what you want is as much altitude as possible as soon as possible. Levelling off at 500 agl is the opposite of what you should do and there isn't going to be any traffic as close to the departure end of the runway as you should be upon reaching 500 agl and if there is, you probably won't see it during a "quick level"------------------------------------------Yes, a level at 500 feet. With McGuire AFB to the left and Flying W behind, as well as Red Lion a bit beyond Flying W, there was all kinds of traffic. One of my first lessons was to learn not to be distracted. It was a busy little area; once at 1500 feet, while climbing out to the practice area, we were underflown by two C-130s. I'll stick with the quick peek ;)------------------------------------------<>You are describing the crosswind turn here. There is no "target altitude" on the crosswind. If you are climbing out in a 172 at VY and flying a properly close pattern you will turn onto the downwind before reaching 850 agl.------------------------------------------I usually hit 850 just before my downwind.------------------------------------------<>In most wind conditions, you will need to reduce full take off power before reaching mid-field. An 850 agl pattern atltitude is quite low...in the U.S. anyway, where 1000 agl is more common. I would not recommend leaving pattern altitude at mid field. Better to leave pattern altitude at the "Key Postion" (45 degrees off your intended landing zone)and possibly not until the base leg turn depending on winds.------------------------------------------Yes, I forgot to say that I'd reduce power once at pattern altitude, and again at midfield.------------------------------------------<< flaps down a notch, check traffic, right turn to final at 500 feet, final flaps, 65 knots, slowing to 60, cross threshold... easy landing, turnoff at first taxiway.>>I don't like the turn to final at 500 feet. Too high. In a properly close pattern a half mile final is PLENTY far off the approach end and at 500 fpm which is a typical descent profile down to the flare, and at around 60 kts, you will have lost only 250 ft in a half mile and will be WAY too high.I would hold pattern altitude until the Key Position and then descend close to 700 fpm from that point through the base-to-final turn AGAIN DEPENDING ON WIND so as to be at about 300 agl at the half mile final position. From that altitude and distance you can maintain a standard rate of descent...adjudting for wind as necessary and land it nicely PAST the numbers. (landing "on the numbers" is old time "hangar bragging", unnecessarily macho and not practiced by any competent pilot that I know.)------------------------------------------The "Key Position" as you mention it was perpendicular to the landing spot for me. I didn't make that up, it's what my instructor did and had me fly. I didn't say anything about landing on the numbers ;) however, I didn't... I landed past them, but slow enough to make the first turnoff, which is actually the second turnoff, the first being so close to the RWY 26 threshold it wouldn't be possible, I think. If you look up KVAY on Google Earth you get a good feel for it.I'm certainly not saying you're wrong in any way, and as I haven't flown for some time, I think I'll call over to the FBO and see what they have to say... but as I mentioned, this is what I was taught for my base airport!Thanks,Andrew

[Guest CowlFlapsOpen]

anyone have an opinion as to how the Realair compares to the Flight1 model? I'm thinking of giving the Bonanza a break and using a 172.

[Guest av84fun]

Hi Andrew,<> With all due and genuine respectrespect to both you and your instructor I think he and/or you are confused about two different positions.The position perpendicular to the landing spot is actually a position "abeam" the runway end at which point, it is accepted procedure to begin a descent from pattern altitude but I was referring to a no wind condition (which is why I kept repeating "depending on the winds). In a no wind condition, leaving pattern alt abeam the numbers will work fine but in progressively higher winds, it is a pilot choice situation depending on experience and personal preference. The greater the headwind (on final) the less interested I am in abandoning pattern altitude before the key position. That is because you are using a lower airspeed on final and therefore, the wind will have a greater relative impact on the TIME it takes to fly the final leg and therefore, at a constant RATE of descent...per minute...you will often find yourself too low and have to drag it in with power.Conversely, it is VASTLY easier to dump excessive altitude with power reductions, flap deployment and sliping if necessary than to drag it in with power which is really your only option of you are too low. "The "key position" is a term of art in aviation and its definition is a point 45 degrees off the intended landing spot. Referring to the key position in any other way is just incorrect. Below, I have copied a section from the FAA's "Airplane Flying Handbook" referring to the downwind leg."During this leg, the before landing check should becompleted and the landing gear extended ifretractable. Pattern altitude should be maintaineduntil abeam the approach end of the landing runway.At this point, power should be reduced and a descentbegun. The downwind leg continues past a pointabeam the approach end of the runway to a pointapproximately 45

[Guest DreamFleet]

Jim,Agree with you, as always. :-) However, I have never done ascending S-turns on departure, and have no problem with a constant heading. If I did S-turns on departure, I would definitely have to deal with the tower asking me what I am doing. Even at other fields, I see no need for it.Yes, I too fly Vx to at least 500' AGL, which is the minimum altitude at which I can make it back to the runway if I lose the engine, and where I fly out of, KCDW, there are no other attractive alternatives except a turn back.Engine temps? As you said, my tush is worth more than my engine.I NEVER level off on climb out. I see absolutely no need to.Then again, we all squawk in our area, and the TIS on our GNS430 is very accurate in telling me who is around, and I have no problem seeing over the glare shield / out the windows.Otherwise, it all depends on where you are flying from and the winds / traffic.At CDW we "dodge bullets" with traffic most of the time (heavy training traffic and more, some instructors who think they know more than they do, I'll leave it at that).Ultimately, the real "killer" can be when you always try to do the same thing all the time, as opposed to judging conditions, and doing what you think is necessary. This comes with experience. In my case, 31 years of it and, Jim, I know you have even more! ;-)Regards,http://www.dreamfleet2000.com/gfx/images/F...R_FORUM_LOU.jpg

[turner112 52]

Well, this is certainly food for thought - I'm feeling that in my exitement to type and the time since I've been away from the pattern, I'm making some mistakes here...BTW the check at 500 is meant for when we're leaving the pattern, but I think I confused it with remaining in the pattern. At the time I was flying there was some ultralight activity, too, so that may have had something to do with it.Gotta go out for Dad's day but later/tomorrow I'll get my head on straight and find my old notes!I think I'll learn something here!cheersAndrew

[Guest PPSFA]

Got my ticket in 1970. My instructor, who I still talk with, would kill me if I leveled off on climbout. Normal TO was to climb to 700 agl before making a left climbing turn (standard traffic pattern), then then either climb to pattern altitude or depart the pattern, depending on what I was doing. As has been said, altitude is life insurance and 500 is too low to be able to turn back with an engine failure, unless you are Check Yeager.Just my .02, but still alive to type it :-)

[Guest av84fun]

<>Neither have I. I just offered it as a "lesser of two evils" suggestion rather than levelling off.<>Ditto that for me during my first several hundred hours of flight out of KDPA with O'Hare, Palwaukee and Glenview NAS to the northeast, Midway due east Aurora to the southwest.<>It surprised me not that you fly with a traffic avoidance box. We've never discussed it but I know for a fact that you have experienced at least one near miss before getting the TIS...because every pilot has who has flown for any appreciable amount of time.The worst of my two Close Encounters was 20 miles west of DPA inbound VFR when a King Air overtaking me from behind and right missed me my SIX FEET. He flew right over and in front of me. Try seeing traffic with the naked eye that is approaching from behind/right..or try seeing ANY traffic ahead of you while flying into a setting sun in a hazy industrial area.My and I am sure your "see and avoid" skills are as good as anyone's but I will NEVER AGAIN be aboard ANY aircraft as pilot or passenger that does not have some for of traffic avoidance gear.Take care my friend.Jim