In an earlier thread, I asked about the two percentage options for the "Add offline GA, helicopter and military traffic" checkbox. The first percentage option is on the main screen, and the second one is behind the cog (which opens a new panel to adjust the individual levels of traffic for each AI type -- the "Adjust traffic density" panel). I was curious to know how these related to the number of offline random aircraft I was seeing.

The response was as follows ... "The main percentage dial controls the "randomized" factor - the higher you set it, the more likely it is that an offline traffic aircraft is created at any given minute (but that also depends on weather, day of week and time of day). How many that are exactly depends a little but upon your local machine, so I thought that I will stick with percentages as we know them. The smaller dialog just handles how many of each type there are. The probability that an offline airplane is created is much higher than that of a helicopter (because there are a lot more parking spaces), so I thought it would be good to add an option so you can dial them back a little bit. A 1-per-increment numeric percentage dial is certainly over the top, but the easiest to make..."

I am only interested in random AI helicopters as my existing AI package already handles GA and military well enough.  That said, this question can be applied to all of the offline random aircraft types.

Over the last few days I have done quite a lot of flying.  There are offline random helicopters in my skies.  However, the numbers do seem a bit scarce to me.  At no stage was there ever any more than 10 active helicopters.  The average would have been 5.  Over three days of flying, I only saw only 1 helicopter at an airport, and it immediately took off as soon as my user aircraft had finished loading.  Not once did I see any AI helicopters parked on helipads at any airport I visited.  All the other helicopters were in the air, some distance away from where I was.  I therefore never saw any of those either.  In short, it almost didn't feel like there were any helicopters in my sim at all.  My percentage values in the program are 100% for the main screen option, and 0%, 100% and 0% for GA, helicopters and military on the smaller dialog.

Some of my flights were done in wet weather, some were done at night.  There were flights in built-up areas (cities) and there were flights in sparse, rural areas.  Realizing from the reply copied above that these kinds of things may have an impact on the number of offline random AI (helicopters) that I might see, I was still hoping that I would get more than the average of 5 helicopters injected in to the sim at any one time.

Would it be possible to somehow provide more control over the number of offline random generated aircraft that get injected?  Is it perhaps feasible to have the program bypass some of the internal code restrictions for things like weather, day of week, and time of day ... maybe by using check boxes or some other similar user controls.  If bypasses are an option, then it might be necessary to allow the user to set a maximum number of aircraft and have the program restrict the number to this limit (such a maximum number would in itself need to be restricted in some way so that users cannot, for example, select a very high and unrealistic number).  I believe there is a bias toward more AI aircraft than helicopters ... OK, that's fine ... but if a user only wants helicopters and sets 0%, 100%, 0%, as I have done, then can the program be modified to recognize that fact and ignore that bias -- would that be sufficient?  Without knowing the internal workings of the algorithms that the program has now, I am unable to offer a different and varying range of possible suggestions here.  Nevertheless, I'd like to have more user control over the number of offline random AI injected in to the simulator, rather than just getting the average of 5 (helicopters) that I am getting now;  none which I see when using the simulator normally and flying my planes.

There's not much point in having a program that can inject offline random AI traffic, if one never sees that traffic.  It would be better in that case to simply remove the program and gain back the system resources. But, I like the idea of being able to have AI (helicopters) in my sim, so I don't want to remove the program.  With that in mind, is there a way we can get a bit more control over the numbers of offline random AI traffic?

Thanks for your consideration ...

Edited March 10, 20206 yr by freddy_

 

6 hours ago, freddy_ said:

There's not much point in having a program that can inject offline random AI traffic, if one never sees that traffic.  It would be better in that case to simply remove the program and gain back the system resources. But, I like the idea of being able to have AI (helicopters) in my sim, so I don't want to remove the program.  With that in mind, is there a way we can get a bit more control over the numbers of offline random AI traffic?

I'm sorry to hear that this pointless program isn't for you. Can't win everywhere. I am very much opposed to the notion that an AI traffic program has to create tons of traffic. It should rather create a realistic amount - which is precisely the motivation for writing a program that injects live traffic in the first place.

Neither the user nor the program have control over the actual numbers, the deciding factor is the scenery. In Germany, with ORBX GEN and GES, I have to dial down the helicopter setting, otherwise there are too many of them. But in default scenery, there are only very few helipads, so there are no helicopters either. In real life, although densly populated, we never get more than 1-2 helicopters in a 100nm range at any given time (if that many), except when you live near a military base. From my point of view a low number of helicopters is very realistic.

To get parked helicopters, you would have to turn on the appropriate setting in LLTX - "Add static aircraft". But that will probably create parked aircraft of all kinds - I need to revisit that logic at some point in the future. And moving traffic always takes precedence over parked assets anyway.

But I guess that the core issue here is that the LLTX offline traffic logic is tied to the available airports in range. Likewise, the number of helicopters is directly proportional to the number of helipads available in a useful range (=where the sim would actually create them). If there are no helipads, there won't be any AI helicopters, because the logic doesn't do "en route" when there is no place to land. I will think about that last one, maybe increase the range for finding suitable landing spots. But if they don't have helipads, that won't help either. I can't very well create two helicopters trying to land on the same pad just for the sake of having more traffic.

Best regards

 

Edited March 10, 20206 yr by Lorby_SI

I am not suggesting the program is pointless. I apologize if I gave that impression.  I think this program is fantastic.  Rather, I am merely making an observation that if one does not see any of the traffic that's being injected, then it is effectively the same as not having the program running. I certainly intend to continue to use the program, even if I don't see any of the injected helicopters. The mere knowledge that helicopters are actually out there in my sim and flying around, and the possibility that I may just happen to see or encounter one, is enough to add to the immersion for me.

"The deciding factor is the scenery". So the default scenery for Germany had few helipads, resulting in fewer helicopters.  But with ORBX GEN and GES there were lots of helipads, resulting in many more helicopters.  OK, that helps to give me a bit of a better picture about why the program is perhaps only giving me 5 helicopters (on average) when I fly. And it does, of course, make sense.

"...the number of helicopters is directly proportional to the number of helipads available in a useful range (=where the sim would actually create them)". This also helps my understanding.

You mention that "although densly populated, we never get more than 1-2 helicopters in a 100nm range at any given time (if that many)". Where I live, I see about 2 or 3 helicopters each day. I do not live near a military base or an airport. Based on the fact the program is injecting 5 helicopters on average in to my sim (which is obviously more than 2 or 3), I would agree with your point of view that the number of helicopters injected by the program is realistic. And it matches with the number of helipads available to the program based on where in the sim I may be.  However, looking at this from a different angle, I am used to actually spotting and seeing helicopters flying in the skies here; something which I am not experiencing in the sim.  The number injected by the program may indeed be realistic, but from my point of view, where I am expecting to see one or two helicopters, things don't "feel" realistic.

Regarding the parked helicopters, I was hoping to encounter an AI helicopter that had flown to an airport and landed, parking there for 30 minutes (the time I have set in the "Parking Duration" field), and then me landing at that same airport before the 30 minutes had elapsed.  In that scenario, I would see the helicopter parked.  The chances of that occurring are proportional to the number of random helicopters being injected in to the sim, and the random chance of me flying to the exact same airport as one of the AI helicopters, and doing that coincidentally at a time which is just after the AI helicopter has landed. All of that is certainly plausible, but it will be rare. The result is that it will be rare to encounter a parked helicopter.  The chances would of course be higher if there were more helicopters injected in to the sim.

In summary ... I love this program. I like having helicopters in my skies, even if I'm not seeing them at the moment (knowing they are there and having the chance of a random encounter adds to the immersion). I certainly do not think the program is pointless and I will continue to use it.  All of that said, I guess I was hoping to be able to see 2 or 3 helicopters in the sim, just as I do in real life each day.  If it can be possible for that to happen, by way of additional user controls to increase the number of helicopters injected in to the sim, or by way of tweaking the range for finding suitable landing spots (perhaps provide a slider for this to the user?), then I'd be all for it. Allowing the user to adjust the program so it generates and injects numbers which better match their expectations of what they see or experience in real life, would be nice icing on the cake, I think. But I also recognise there are limitations ... you can't, as you correctly point out, create two helicopters trying to land on the same pad just for the sake of having more traffic. And I also agree that the aim of the program should be to not generate large numbers of unrealistic traffic. It's a fine line.

Edited March 10, 20206 yr by freddy_

7 hours ago, freddy_ said:

Regarding the parked helicopters, I was hoping to encounter an AI helicopter that had flown to an airport and landed, parking there for 30 minutes (the time I have set in the "Parking Duration" field), and then me landing at that same airport before the 30 minutes had elapsed.  In that scenario, I would see the helicopter parked.  The chances of that occurring are proportional to the number of random helicopters being injected in to the sim, and the random chance of me flying to the exact same airport as one of the AI helicopters, and doing that coincidentally at a time which is just after the AI helicopter has landed. All of that is certainly plausible, but it will be rare. The result is that it will be rare to encounter a parked helicopter.  The chances would of course be higher if there were more helicopters injected in to the sim.

That should be the case actually, that is how it works. The parking duration is randomized a little bit though, the 30minutes is just a guideline (I don't like it when things always happen exactly the same way...).

When you stay at an airport where a heilcopter is inbound, it should land, and then stick around for a while. Likewise, departing helicopters are resting on the pad for a while too. What you describe rather feels like things are the other way around. The probability that a helicopter departs is too high (on average), they just don't stick around long enough. That I can change, I could add a timeout so their departure is triggered depending on the parking duration too (= after randomized 30-ish minutes). That should result in a higher probability of seeing a helicopter at the airport (again, on average). One other thing is the radius in which offline traffic is created - LLTX always places them at the edge of your selected range. If you set the range to the usual 60nm, then an inbound traffic asset will be created about 60nm away. In case of helicopters that means that it will take a while until they get to their destination. I chose to make it that way, because I don't like things popping into existence out of nowhere.

Planespotting tipp: if you really want to see many helicopters in action, and if you have ORBX GES, go to ETEB. Maybe add a few more military helicopters to the list and lock them to ETEB (I have mostly Blackhawks, Chinooks, a few Apaches and a couple of CH-53s assigned to that base)

Best regards 

Edited March 11, 20206 yr by Lorby_SI

I am starting to get a better feel for how this works now.

I have stayed at airports and waited for helicopters to land.  They arrive and they land.  I have had some of these helicopters then instantly disappear (throttled by the sim), as soon as they touch down.  The throttling can occur before engines off, and it can occur immediately following engines off.  I have also had helicopters resting and shutting down on the pads, perfectly normally, exactly as I would expect them to do with typical program operation.  It is still too early in my use of the program for me to tell if the throttling happens a lot, or whether it is just something which occurs because the program is still in some kind of "settling down" phase, so to speak (I usually go helicopter spotting right after starting the simulator and loading the LiveTraffic program).  I simply haven't sat around and observed for long enough to be able to give you much more diagnostic information on this throttling thing.  For the helicopters that rest on pads, they don't appear to rest there for the length of the "Parking Duration" parameter (in my case, set to 30 minutes).  Instead, they seem to wait for only a short period, before taking off again (I haven't timed it, but the period isn't very long).  I have also seen similar departure behavior as the sim starts up and I load the program -- if a helicopter is injected in to the sim, on to a pad at the same airport where I am located, then that helicopter almost immediately departs only after a very short wait.

OK, those observations aside, you have touched on something in your response which has me thinking that I could increase the chance of my actually seeing more helicopters at the airports I visit if I lessen the radius in which offline traffic is created.  Currently I have that set at 80nm.  You said that LiveTraffic always places them at the edge of the selected range Like you, I don't like seeing things pop in to existence.  Are you saying that a "bubble" is created around my user aircraft, at 80nm and the helicopters are always placed at the very edge of that bubble?  I have seen active helicopters loaded which the program interface reports as only being a short distance away from me.  That doesn't correlate with your statement that they are placed at the edge; it instead seems to suggest they are placed at random distances within that bubble? Personally, I would prefer if they were placed at random distance between, say 10nm and the offline traffic radius figure (in my case that would mean a random distance between 10nm and 80nm). The 10nm lower limit would mean the user still does not see helicopters popping in to existence.  You could also make the lower distance a user chosen value (slider), but restrict the lower value to say, 10nm. This would work not just for helicopters for GA and military too.  (10nm may be too low, so choose a value that feels right to you to avoid the popping in to existence issue.)  You should still also have a random chance that a helicopter (or two?) is loaded, on a helipad, at the user airport on program start. Sure, this/these helicopter(s) will pop in to existence, but it would make sense to the user because it is at program start. That raises another question, do the injected helicopters always begin in the air?

For the "Parking Duration", I think your suggested change would work.  But, how about this ... I'd suggest the Parking Duration should work in a similar way to what I just described above.  Have the helicopters (and GA and military) depart based on a random duration between say, 5-ish minutes and the currently set parking duration parameter.  In my case, my parking duration is set as 30 minutes.  So have the helicopters (and GA and military) land and stay on pads (or parked) for a random time between 5-sh minutes and 30-ish minutes.  You could even add a slider for that lower value too to give the user control over it so they can leave it at 5 minutes or increase it.  If they increase it to (= current parking duration parameter), then the helicopters (and GA and military) land and/or stay on helipads and parking spots for the total 30-ish minutes.

Feel free to take these suggestions on-board, or not. I feel they might give just enough additional control to the user. And, I hope that with such control, the user has an increased probability of spotting / seeing the helicopters more often in the sim (or not, depending on where they set the parameters).  I still agree with you that too much traffic is unrealistic, so some experimentation with these parameters, if you choose to add them, may be needed.

 

Edited March 11, 20206 yr by freddy_

11 hours ago, freddy_ said:

You said that LiveTraffic always places them at the edge of the selected range

Sorry, I was wrong about that, I mixed up apps (I have more than one that creates AI traffic). In LLTX, the point where an inbound helicopter is created is roughly 25% of the distance between departure airport and destination. So the actual distance to you is more or less random, because your own location doesn't factor into this.

 

11 hours ago, freddy_ said:

Have the helicopters (and GA and military) depart based on a random duration between say, 5-ish minutes and the currently set parking duration parameter.

That will be the case in version 1.76. And I have added checkboxes so you can select what kind of static objects you have. That way you can add a couple of static helicopters (that will be replaced when actual traffic happens). 

But the focus of the 1.76 is a different one. A fellow developer likes to have rough strips on his airports instead of flat runways. I have added functionality so that LLTX GA traffic is operating in and out of those fields too now. Current work item is to expand this to the airliners in SimAI/Hybrid mode too, since I expect more airports with non-flat runways to appear in the future. LLTX live traffic can use them, but not the other two.

Best regards

Edited March 12, 20206 yr by Lorby_SI

15 hours ago, Lorby_SI said:

Sorry, I was wrong about that, I mixed up apps (I have more than one that creates AI traffic). In LLTX, the point where an inbound helicopter is created is roughly 25% of the distance between departure airport and destination. So the actual distance to you is more or less random, because your own location doesn't factor into this.

Ahh.  Based on the distances the interface is showing me, that does make sense.

 

22 hours ago, freddy_ said:

 Have the helicopters (and GA and military) depart based on a random duration between say, 5-ish minutes and the currently set parking duration parameter.

15 hours ago, Lorby_SI said:

That will be the case in version 1.76. And I have added checkboxes so you can select what kind of static objects you have. That way you can add a couple of static helicopters (that will be replaced when actual traffic happens).

That minor change for departures will work well, I think.

Checkboxes to select the type of static objects ... that is a great idea.

 

15 hours ago, Lorby_SI said:

But the focus of the 1.76 is a different one. A fellow developer likes to have rough strips on his airports instead of flat runways. I have added functionality so that LLTX GA traffic is operating in and out of those fields too now. Current work item is to expand this to the airliners in SimAI/Hybrid mode too, since I expect more airports with non-flat runways to appear in the future. LLTX live traffic can use them, but not the other two.

That is awesome!  It just keeps getting better and better!

Edited March 12, 20206 yr by freddy_

On 3/12/2020 at 10:55 PM, freddy_ said:

That is awesome!  It just keeps getting better and better!

Hello Freddy, 

did you just volunteer to test it? Maybe we could work out something that looks better for the AI helicopter schedules too.

Best regards

Hi Oliver,

My interest in the program is purely in the helicopters only. I would not be able to provide adequate testing or feedback on rough strips and GA AI as I won't be using the program to generate that kind of traffic. Therefore, no, sorry, I don't think I am a good candidate for testing.

I am excited though by the prospect that the program will have a change made so that helicopters (and GA and military) will depart based on a random duration between say, 5-ish minutes and the currently set parking duration parameter. That change alone will certainly increase my chances of actually seeing helicopters in my sim during normal sim use.

I am still happy to offer suggestions for helping to improve the helicopter schedules. Although, now that I have a better understanding of how the program functions in that regard right now, in its current form, I think it is already most of the way there toward offering the realistic immersion that I ... and I am sure others ... crave. I'd probably just tweak it slightly as already mentioned in previous posts to allow the user to better control the numbers of helicopters (and GA and military?) that it produces, subject to an upper restricted realistic limit. That, along with the already planned change for the parking duration, and I think it will be a winner.

Edited March 16, 20206 yr by freddy_