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Guest TheJedi

Grumman Goose contact points

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After having fiddled with those baggage carts, I took care of a request over at simhq.Essentially it was about the Grumman Goose not sitting correctly in the water. The main body was not sitting deep enough, compared to real life photos of the Grumman Goose.Also, I had the impression that the wing floates on the other side, immersed to deep into the water.The fix consists of editing the aircraft.cfg file for the Grumman Goose by changing the contact point values.Now my question is, should I post it under tips and tricks simply, or is something like this worth an upload?`The problem is, the aircraft.cfg files are localized for each language, so loading up a complete aircraft.cfg makes no sense.I would just put up a text file explaining for which file to look and what to edit. The result after editing looks like this:http://home.germany.net/100-499937/FSX/goose_float_fix.jpg(both after the fix, the difference between the two screenshots is just the waves)If someone want's to do some testing, here is how to change it:Backup the file..Microsoft Flight Simulator XSimObjectsAirplanesGrumman_Goose_G21Aaircraft.cfgOpen the aircraft.cfg with the Editor and find the CONTACT_POINTS section.Change these original lines:;/FLOATSpoint.3=4, 5.1, -1.8, -3.9, 2500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 0.0, 0.0, 5, 0, 0point.4=4, 5.1, 1.8, -3.9, 2500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 0.0, 0.0, 5, 0, 0point.5=4, -15.3, -1.8, -2.1, 2500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 0.0, 0.0, 5, 0, 0point.6=4, -15.3, 1.8, -2.1, 2500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 0.0, 0.0, 5, 0, 0;/Wing Floatspoint.7=4, -2.1,-20.5, -0.8, 1500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 12.0, 12.0, 5, 0, 0point.8=4, -2.1, 20.5, -0.8, 1500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 14.0, 14.0, 5, 0, 0point.9=5, -6.5, 0.0, -6.0, 0, 0, 0.0, 20, 0.00, 0.0, 1.00, 0.0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0to these new values:;/FLOATSpoint.3=4, 5.1, -1.8, -2.7, 2500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 0.0, 0.0, 5, 0, 0point.4=4, 5.1, 1.8, -2.7, 2500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 0.0, 0.0, 5, 0, 0point.5=4, -15.3, -1.8, -1.6, 2500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 0.0, 0.0, 5, 0, 0point.6=4, -15.3, 1.8, -1.6, 2500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 0.0, 0.0, 5, 0, 0;/Wing Floatspoint.7=4, -2.1,-20.5, -1.0, 1500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 12.0, 12.0, 5, 0, 0point.8=4, -2.1, 20.5, -1.0, 1500, 0, 0.0, 0, 0.50, 2.5, 0.70, 14.0, 14.0, 5, 0, 0point.9=5, -6.5, 0.0, -6.0, 0, 0, 0.0, 20, 0.00, 0.0, 1.00, 0.0, 0.0, 0, 0, 0I didn't encounter any problems so far. Did 10-15 starts and landings, sometimes immersing one of the wing floats first so see if anything went wrong.If someone has improvement ideas or encounters any problems, please let me know.

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I'll upload a walkthrough with two variants to choose from now.Testing showed no problems and others reported the same.

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It looks better IMO, i would like a zipped fix for it.Is the landing any different? Me and other goose flyers would certainly appreciate less wobbling to the left/right when taxying on the sea.

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I had no problems with landing. The plane raises slightly when at higher speeds, so the wing floats kind of clear out of the water.I tried landing tilted to either the left or right sight and the wing floats corrected me just fine.Here is the upload:http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?DLID=93479Edit:I just discovered something abosolutely funny.Also, it proofs that Variant 1 from the upload is indeed the most realistic one.Did anyone of you take a look at the stock textures of the FSX Goose? It has a nice feature which even is visible in the gear housing when gear is down.It's the dirt and corrosion caused by the water. You all know this from boats. It practically marks the line of maximum water immersion of the vehicle. And here it is:http://home.germany.net/100-499937/FSX/goose_waterline.jpgBoth Variant 1 screenshots, once at minium and once at maximum. See? It fits! :D

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Excellent work Jedi!The FSX default Grumman Goose is a very good piece of work.I am contemplating adjusting the contact points for use of Joe Binka's fabulous Grumman Widgeon Radial in FSX.Have you worked with that great aircraft yet? Be sure to read the readme, as Joe put some remarkable and fun realism "gotcha's" into its programming!see: http://library.avsim.net/search.php?Search...=root&Go=SearchAlthough it seems to otherwise function very well in FSX, it appears to sit a little low in the water compared to FS9.I can highly recommend this as another outstanding amphibian for use in either version of FS; I find it to be on par with payware aircraft... (truly exemplary work, Joe)!Jedi, I would welcome any pointers you could give on how to tweak this particular amphibian's water contact points for FSX.OOPS!!! No disrespect intended, Joe, just porting it over to further enjoy in FSX!("Hey Joe, where ya' goin' with that gun in your hand?" -Jimi Hendrix).I would hope to use any insights gained to then adjust John Woodward's Lake Renegade Amphibian as well, and I would share the information with others on how to do this upon completion.see: http://library.avsim.net/search.php?CatID=...&Go=Change+ViewThanks for any insights you could take the time to share on this.And thanks again to Joe Binka for an exceptional flying boat!GaryGB

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Editing those planes should be very similar to the edit I did.In fact, you just need to find the contact point lines that start like point.x=4, which means they are floats.Problems might occur when altering the floats leads to scrapes touching the water, which means the plane will crash. I had the problem at first with the Goose.The third number behind the point.x=4 is the height of the contact point. To get the plane sit deeper, you increase the number, to raise it further out of the water, you decrease it.As long as the aircraft.cfg has commentary on which is the main body and which is the wing floats, this is easy. If not, you have to look at the rest of the coordinates to get an image of what is where.For example, if the float contact point looks like this:point.1=4 2.0 2.0 -1.0Changing this topoint.1=4 2.0 2.0 -1.5would raise the plane half a foot by lowering the contact point.Changing it topoint.1=4 2.0 2.0 0.0would let the plane sink a foot down by setting the contact point 1 foot higher.Just in case you want to experiment a little bit with it.Also, running the simulator in windowed mode and choosing "change aircraft" will give you the ability to load the aircraft with changed contact points without having to restart the simulation every time.My recommendation is to change all hull float points by the same amount. This prevents tilting the aircraft to unnatural angles.In my fix for example, I set the hull float coordinates all higher by the same ammount but the wing floats deeper, thus putting the plane lower and making the wing floats "float" earlier.Edit:I haven't installed Joe Binka's Goose yet, but the aircraft.cfg has these float contact points:point.7 = 4, 4, -2, -4.5, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 0point.8 = 4, 4, 2, -4.5, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.9 = 4, -2, 0, -4, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.10 = 4, -12, 0, -2, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.11 = 4, -3, -15, -2.5, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.12 = 4, -3, 15, -2.5, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1Judging from the coordinates, the last two are the wing floats, the first 4 are the main hull.To get the plane about a foot out of the water, you could try to change the first 4 points to:point.7 = 4, 4, -2, -5.5, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 0point.8 = 4, 4, 2, -5.5, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.9 = 4, -2, 0, -5, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.10 = 4, -12, 0, -5, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1and then see what happens. I'll try this later myself perhaps... but this should help you to get it right yourself. :)

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Hi Jedi:I have edited a copy of the aircraft.cfg for the Widgeon Radial, and will take it for a flight in a little while (after a big backup data tranfer is done), and will post back how it went.BTW, is there a way to know which contact point is the tail portion of the hull?The Widgeon in addition to sitting too low, appears to have the tail nearly under water, and I wasn't sure if the 1 foot lift overall would put it where it should be.I guess I'll see soon enough, but was hoping you could advise on how to know which point was the tail in this section of the aircraft.cfg file for this and other amphibians. This would for future reference in case I ever need to set the tail independent of the other points to get an angle corrected to real life, but still functional within FS operating parameters.Also, is there a method to the numbers which one should keep in mind such as 1 whole unit is equal to 1 foot in elevation relative to the FS surface level?And is there a ratio with all amphibious planes which needs to be observed (to keep FS happy) when setting the tail independent from the other contact points on a unique aircraft with a unique pitch angle relative to the water surface?I really appreciate the great tips, and I'll look forward to hearing your impressions on Joe's Widgeon when you get a chance to try it out.Thanks again for sharing your helpful insights with us all here!:-)< Hmmm... the Force is strong in this one...! > ;-) GaryGB

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You could check out this article concerning problems with contact points:http://www.sim-outhouse.com/index.php?loc=articles&page=cpAlso, there is an html-file that comes with the FSX SDK which explains all contact point settings (for example that type 5 is the water rudder).However, some things are dependent on the model itself and where the reference point for the coordinates is.Which is always the same (as stated in the article), is the function of the values:point.7 = 4 <- typepoint.7 = 4, 4 <- forward/backwardpoint.7 = 4, -2 <- left/rightpoint.7 = 4, -2, -4.5 <- up/downWith those coordinates for Joe's Goose:point.7 = 4, 4, -2, -4.5, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 0point.8 = 4, 4, 2, -4.5, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.9 = 4, -2, 0, -4, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.10 = 4, -12, 0, -4, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 1, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1Point 7 and 8 are 4 foot forward from the reference point each. One 2 feet to the left, one two feet to the right.These should be the float contacts for the forward main body.Point 9 is 2 feet back from the reference point and on the centerline.Point 10 is 12 feet back from the reference point and also on the centerline.Conclusion: Changing point 9 and 10 independently of point 7 and 8 should raise the back of the plane further out of the water.

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Update:About the Grumman Widgeon:The contact points for the floats were off in all 3 dimensions.Also, it seems that 2 float points float twice as much as one does.That seems to be the reason why the tail sinks so deep.My computer just rebooted (perhaps a glitch the the Widgeon... happened when starting the motors), but I'll recheck my latest points for the Widgeon and post them here.I think I'll remove the Widgeon until a dedicated FSX version is released, as there are several glitches that need to be fixed (sound roough, propeller displayed behind all clouds) and it might be that all contact points are off.About the floats: I think duplicating the middle float point to give predictable behaviour would be good. Had some problems taking off.Also, the compression values are reduced with my new set of points for the Widgeon.Note: I'm talking about Joe Binka's Widgeon, not the FSX Goose now.

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Hi Jedi:I'm still studying up in the references you cited, and hope to become better educated in these matters soon.In the mean time, I sent a PM to Joe Binka (odog) to see if he might offer any additional input here.Thanks again for your help with this!:-) GaryGB

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Ok, done for now.I mimicked the configuration of the FSX Goose now.What I did:Removed the contact point in the back.It caused the plane to pitch either back, floating on the aft and middle contact point, or forth, floating on the 2 forward points and the middle points.Now I have two front points (far enough to the front to compensate for the engine pull when starting and in front of the center of gravity) and another two points in the back, narrower together and far enough behind the center of gravity to prevent the plane from pitching over.Also, I changed the coordinates for the wing floats completely, as they were somewhere in the air and too far outside.And I reduced the compression amount so that the plane sits in the water high enough when at rest but doesn't start to "fly" when accelerating. Now it's "surfing" believingly when accelerating to take-off speed.By eliminating the back point, the total amount of contact points remained the same and no renumbering is necessary.These are the new coordinates and values:point.7 = 4, 7, -2, -4.57, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 0.5, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 0point.8 = 4, 7, 2, -4.57, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 0.5, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.9 = 4, -5, 0.25, -3.40, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 0.5, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.10 = 4, -5, -0.25, -3.40, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 0.5, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.11 = 4, 1.1, -13.6, -2.2, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 0.5, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1point.12 = 4, 1.1, 13.6, -2.2, 10000, 0, 0, 0, 0.5, 2.5, 0.65, 0, 0, 1The first 4 are the body floats, the last two are the wing floats.I'm happy with this. Starting and landing looks really believingly.Oops, 2 o'clock in the moring... should get some sleep now. :)PS: The hint with setting nav lights to the coordinates of the contact points (see the article I linked above) is fantastic. You can see what you're changing. Really helpful.

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Hi Jedi:Wow.. that really made a nice change in the Widgeon's position and behavior!:-) It seems a bit more "alive" in the water now as well. Although it is a little early in achieving elevation onto the "step" at slower speeds (don't know if this is a limitation in the controllability of amphibians in the aircraft SDK), I like the way it eventually settles into the water at much lower speeds, and overall it looks pretty darn good!;) I look forward to learning more about this, as I would eventually like to make an accurate FS flyable version of the Lake LA4-200 EP Amphibian (beyond the Buccaneer and before the Renegade and Seafury/Seawolf) that my colleague and I have done a lot of real world flying in over the years.:-coolBTW, have you tried out "Nick's" effects files? The ones for the water are especially realistic, and allow much better than default water effects while still allowing the effects slider to be kept to a minimum in FSX.Thanks very much for your help with this, Jedi!GaryGB

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Ah, I knew there was something missing. :DJust noticed that the aircraft.cfg has nicks_tchwater and nicks_tchdirt as effects. That's why there were not water effects when starting. Thanks for the hint. :)And I'm happy you liked the latest set of contact points for the widgeon. Always happy glad to help.PS: I wish I knew how to control the speed at which the plane "raises" out of the water. But at the moment I have no idea what to change.

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Actually, when the goose is sitting at rest in the water, only one float would be actually in the water. I'm sure that perhaps a heavily loaded plane may sit it lower in, I can only speculate on that. I've studied the goose alot, read many articles, and know that even during high speed taxi and takeoffs, the use of ailerons is used to maintain a level wing status. I would agree that the FSX version should be a little lower, but not to the point where both floats rest in the water. Here is a site with many photos and you will see what I mean.http://catalinamayer.com/catalog141295.html

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