January 10, 20242 yr Hi Alex, I'm finding that LNM doesn't seem to correctly export a flight plan to MSFS 2020 when both a STAR and an Approach are selected. I believe that I have the correct options selected, and it works correctly if only a STAR is selected. Attached are the LNM plans for STAR/Approach and STAR Only, and the corresponding output files.https://filetransfer.io/data-package/Wq92S9rc#link Also, and this seems strange, but the Export Options seem to be inverted; I'm currently running with them set as the attached screenshot - if I 'tick' them I lose the related details.https://postimg.cc/d7WrhnLK I'm currently running 3.0.1.beta Thanks, Martin Edited January 10, 20242 yr by pointy56
January 10, 20242 yr Hi Martin, 3 hours ago, pointy56 said: I'm finding that LNM doesn't seem to correctly export a flight plan to MSFS 2020 when both a STAR and an Approach are selected. I believe that I have the correct options selected, and it works correctly if only a STAR is selected. Attached are the LNM plans for STAR/Approach and STAR Only, and the corresponding output files. Thank you for the files. Your file "IFR Stansted (EGSS) to Hannover (EDDV)-STARApproach.lnmpln" does not contain a STAR. I see only a SID and an approach. Maybe the STAR got lost due to an LNM bug? Did you switch databases, for example (MSFS vs. X-Plane, etc.)? The file below contains the STAR NIE27 and the approach I27RY via NIE to EDDF. Copy this into a .lnmpln and the export and import should work. I removed en-route waypoints to keep the post short. <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <LittleNavmap xmlns:xsi="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema-instance" xsi:noNamespaceSchemaLocation="https://www.littlenavmap.org/schema/lnmpln.xsd"> <Flightplan> <Header> <FlightplanType>IFR</FlightplanType> <CruisingAlt>35000</CruisingAlt> <CruisingAltF>35000.00000000</CruisingAltF> <CreationDate>2024-01-10T16:55:38+01:00</CreationDate> <FileVersion>1.2</FileVersion> <ProgramName>Little Navmap</ProgramName> <ProgramVersion>3.0.2.beta</ProgramVersion> <Documentation>https://www.littlenavmap.org/lnmpln.html</Documentation> </Header> <SimData>MSFS</SimData> <NavData Cycle="2313">NAVIGRAPH</NavData> <AircraftPerformance> <FilePath>FJS 732 TwinJet V3 Pro.lnmperf</FilePath> <Type>B732</Type> <Name>FJS 732 TwinJet V3 Pro</Name> </AircraftPerformance> <Departure> <Pos Lon="0.252106" Lat="51.889412" Alt="348.00"/> <Start>PARKING 14</Start> <Type>Parking</Type> <Heading>44.5437</Heading> </Departure> <Procedures> <SID> <Name>CLN9R</Name> <Runway>22</Runway> </SID> <STAR> <Name>NIE27</Name> <Runway>27R</Runway> </STAR> <Approach> <Name>INSAG</Name> <ARINC>I27RY</ARINC> <Runway>27R</Runway> <Type>ILS</Type> <Suffix>Y</Suffix> <Transition>NIE</Transition> <TransitionType>F</TransitionType> </Approach> </Procedures> <Alternates> <Alternate> <Name>Frankfurt/Main</Name> <Ident>EDDF</Ident> <Type>AIRPORT</Type> <Pos Lon="8.570450" Lat="50.033306" Alt="183.00"/> </Alternate> </Alternates> <Waypoints> <Waypoint> <Name>Stansted</Name> <Ident>EGSS</Ident> <Type>AIRPORT</Type> <Pos Lon="0.235001" Lat="51.884998" Alt="348.00"/> </Waypoint> <Waypoint> <Name>Pampus</Name> <Ident>PAM</Ident> <Region>EH</Region> <Type>VOR</Type> <Pos Lon="5.092195" Lat="52.334751" Alt="35000.00"/> </Waypoint> <Waypoint> <Name>Hannover</Name> <Ident>EDDV</Ident> <Type>AIRPORT</Type> <Pos Lon="9.683517" Lat="52.460213" Alt="222.00"/> </Waypoint> </Waypoints> </Flightplan> </LittleNavmap> 3 hours ago, pointy56 said: Also, and this seems strange, but the Export Options seem to be inverted; I'm currently running with them set as the attached screenshot - if I 'tick' them I lose the related details. Which is working as expected and not inverted. Do not use these options except in special cases. Leave them unchecked for MSFS. LNM will export only the waypoints of the related procedures but not the procedure information (speed and altitude restrictions, etc) if enabled. Alex Alex' Projects: Little Navmap
January 10, 20242 yr Author Hi Alex, Thanks for your prompt response. I tried using the example you posted above, and this is what I get when I export it: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <SimBase.Document Type="AceXML" version="1,0"> <Descr>AceXML Document</Descr> <FlightPlan.FlightPlan> <Title>EGSS to EDDV</Title> <FPType>IFR</FPType> <RouteType>HighAlt</RouteType> <CruisingAlt>35000</CruisingAlt> <DepartureID>EGSS</DepartureID> <DepartureLLA>N51° 53' 21.88",E0° 15' 7.58",+000348.00</DepartureLLA> <DestinationID>EDDV</DestinationID> <DestinationLLA>N52° 27' 36.77",E9° 41' 0.66",+000183.00</DestinationLLA> <Descr>EGSS, EDDV created by Little Navmap 3.0.1.beta</Descr> <DeparturePosition>PARKING 14</DeparturePosition> <DepartureName>Stansted</DepartureName> <DestinationName>Hannover</DestinationName> <AppVersion> <AppVersionMajor>11</AppVersionMajor> <AppVersionBuild>282174</AppVersionBuild> </AppVersion> <ATCWaypoint id="EGSS"> <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N51° 53' 5.99",E0° 14' 6.00",+000348.00</WorldPosition> <ICAO> <ICAOIdent>EGSS</ICAOIdent> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="RW22"> <ATCWaypointType>User</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N51° 53' 42.56",E0° 15' 0.16",+000348.00</WorldPosition> <DepartureFP>CLN9R</DepartureFP> <RunwayNumberFP>22</RunwayNumberFP> <ICAO> <ICAOIdent>RW22</ICAOIdent> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="D220A"> <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N51° 51' 42.36",E0° 11' 59.16",+001388.90</WorldPosition> <DepartureFP>CLN9R</DepartureFP> <RunwayNumberFP>22</RunwayNumberFP> <ICAO> <ICAORegion>EG</ICAORegion> <ICAOIdent>D220A</ICAOIdent> <ICAOAirport>EGSS</ICAOAirport> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="XIGAR"> <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N51° 48' 50.00",E0° 15' 46.00",+003000.00</WorldPosition> <DepartureFP>CLN9R</DepartureFP> <RunwayNumberFP>22</RunwayNumberFP> <ICAO> <ICAORegion>EG</ICAORegion> <ICAOIdent>XIGAR</ICAOIdent> <ICAOAirport>EGSS</ICAOAirport> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="CLN28"> <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N51° 49' 10.41",E0° 23' 48.28",+004000.00</WorldPosition> <DepartureFP>CLN9R</DepartureFP> <RunwayNumberFP>22</RunwayNumberFP> <ICAO> <ICAORegion>EG</ICAORegion> <ICAOIdent>CLN28</ICAOIdent> <ICAOAirport>EGSS</ICAOAirport> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="D265U"> <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N51° 49' 38.04",E0° 35' 3.71",+004000.00</WorldPosition> <DepartureFP>CLN9R</DepartureFP> <RunwayNumberFP>22</RunwayNumberFP> <ICAO> <ICAORegion>EG</ICAORegion> <ICAOIdent>D265U</ICAOIdent> <ICAOAirport>EGSS</ICAOAirport> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="D265P"> <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N51° 49' 57.13",E0° 43' 6.30",+005000.00</WorldPosition> <DepartureFP>CLN9R</DepartureFP> <RunwayNumberFP>22</RunwayNumberFP> <ICAO> <ICAORegion>EG</ICAORegion> <ICAOIdent>D265P</ICAOIdent> <ICAOAirport>EGSS</ICAOAirport> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="D265M"> <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N51° 50' 8.30",E0° 47' 55.91",+006000.00</WorldPosition> <DepartureFP>CLN9R</DepartureFP> <RunwayNumberFP>22</RunwayNumberFP> <ICAO> <ICAORegion>EG</ICAORegion> <ICAOIdent>D265M</ICAOIdent> <ICAOAirport>EGSS</ICAOAirport> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="CLN"> <ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N51° 50' 54.50",E1° 8' 51.32",+006000.00</WorldPosition> <DepartureFP>CLN9R</DepartureFP> <RunwayNumberFP>22</RunwayNumberFP> <ICAO> <ICAORegion>EG</ICAORegion> <ICAOIdent>CLN</ICAOIdent> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="PAM"> <ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N52° 20' 5.10",E5° 5' 31.90",+035000.00</WorldPosition> <ICAO> <ICAORegion>EH</ICAORegion> <ICAOIdent>PAM</ICAOIdent> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="NIE"> <ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N52° 37' 33.21",E9° 22' 19.17",+011000.00</WorldPosition> <ArrivalFP>NIE27</ArrivalFP> <RunwayNumberFP>27</RunwayNumberFP> <RunwayDesignatorFP>RIGHT</RunwayDesignatorFP> <ICAO> <ICAORegion>ED</ICAORegion> <ICAOIdent>NIE</ICAOIdent> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="DV502"> <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N52° 32' 35.00",E9° 44' 2.07",+010009.33</WorldPosition> <ArrivalFP>NIE27</ArrivalFP> <RunwayNumberFP>27</RunwayNumberFP> <RunwayDesignatorFP>RIGHT</RunwayDesignatorFP> <ICAO> <ICAORegion>ED</ICAORegion> <ICAOIdent>DV502</ICAOIdent> <ICAOAirport>EDDV</ICAOAirport> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="DV565"> <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N52° 31' 22.38",E10° 23' 17.06",+008329.52</WorldPosition> <ArrivalFP>NIE27</ArrivalFP> <RunwayNumberFP>27</RunwayNumberFP> <RunwayDesignatorFP>RIGHT</RunwayDesignatorFP> <ICAO> <ICAORegion>ED</ICAORegion> <ICAOIdent>DV565</ICAOIdent> <ICAOAirport>EDDV</ICAOAirport> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="AUTOWP1"> <ATCWaypointType>User</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N52° 37' 33.21",E9° 22' 19.17",+005690.20</WorldPosition> <ArrivalFP>NIE27</ArrivalFP> <RunwayNumberFP>27</RunwayNumberFP> <RunwayDesignatorFP>RIGHT</RunwayDesignatorFP> <ICAO> <ICAOIdent>AUTOWP1</ICAOIdent> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> <ATCWaypoint id="EDDV"> <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N52° 27' 36.77",E9° 41' 0.66",+000183.00</WorldPosition> <SuffixFP>Y</SuffixFP> <ApproachTypeFP>ILS</ApproachTypeFP> <RunwayNumberFP>27</RunwayNumberFP> <RunwayDesignatorFP>RIGHT</RunwayDesignatorFP> <ICAO> <ICAOIdent>EDDV</ICAOIdent> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> </FlightPlan.FlightPlan> </SimBase.Document> Is this what you would expect? I can see the STAR in the MSFS export, but not the Approach. In answer to your other questions: I only use MSFS with this copy of LNM, but I have recently updated from AIRAC 2312 to 2313 - would that affect things? It may not be relevant, but I've been trying various approach options recently so changing (deleting and then adding) arrival procedures and LNM did seem to get a bit confused, sometimes saying that it was unable to save the LNM FP when it was apparently happy with the changes I had just made - it's possible that the file I provided is a hangover from that. Sorry! Here's another example of an FP that has this issue if you want to see it - in this one I can see the SID, STAR and Approach in the LNM FP, just like yours.https://filetransfer.io/data-package/O90XFu3L#link Is it possible that I've screwed up a setting somewhere? Thanks, Martin
January 10, 20242 yr 29 minutes ago, pointy56 said: Is this what you would expect? Yes. The approach is here: <ATCWaypoint id="EDDV"> <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType> <WorldPosition>N52° 27' 36.77",E9° 41' 0.66",+000183.00</WorldPosition> <SuffixFP>Y</SuffixFP> <ApproachTypeFP>ILS</ApproachTypeFP> <RunwayNumberFP>27</RunwayNumberFP> <RunwayDesignatorFP>RIGHT</RunwayDesignatorFP> <ICAO> <ICAOIdent>EDDV</ICAOIdent> </ICAO> </ATCWaypoint> The four fields define the approach I27R-Y. The approach transition NIE is not saved which is a shortcoming of the MSFS PLN format. It selects the transition automatically when loading which can work ok or not. 33 minutes ago, pointy56 said: In answer to your other questions: I only use MSFS with this copy of LNM, but I have recently updated from AIRAC 2312 to 2313 - would that affect things? It can but most flight plans are ok. Waypoints, airways and more often SID and STAR change over time in real world. LNM shows red warning messages if something does not match. You can see this when loading old flight plans from months ago. 38 minutes ago, pointy56 said: It may not be relevant, but I've been trying various approach options recently so changing (deleting and then adding) arrival procedures and LNM did seem to get a bit confused, sometimes saying that it was unable to save the LNM FP when it was apparently happy with the changes I had just made - it's possible that the file I provided is a hangover from that. Sorry! I'd need to know the error message for more diagnostics. LNM shows warnings to avoid broken plans in MSFS. It'll show you a hint if you save a VFR plan with procedures, for example. MSFS would replace the plan with a straight line in this case. 41 minutes ago, pointy56 said: Here's another example of an FP that has this issue if you want to see it - in this one I can see the SID, STAR and Approach in the LNM FP, just like yours. It shows the warning STAR runway "05" not equal to approach runway "25L". The approach uses 25L but the STAR is assigned to 05. The exported PLN is ok. 41 minutes ago, pointy56 said: Is it possible that I've screwed up a setting somewhere? Definitely not. There are probably some critters left in LNM from the recent changes before 3.0.1.beta. We just need to keep an eye open. Alex Alex' Projects: Little Navmap
January 10, 20242 yr Author OK, thank you for again coming back so quickly Alex. I can now see that the Approach is included - that's not the way that I was expecting to see it, a misunderstanding on my part. With the other plan I provided I'm not seeing the red error message when I load it, although I have seen similar before. Although the LNM plan shows STAR WODY4B with runway 05, which I understand is a mismatch to the ILS approach, WODY4B is valid for all runways. I suspect, but will need to check, that I changed the approach from runway 05 to runway 25L without also deleting and re-adding the STAR. Martin
January 10, 20242 yr 41 minutes ago, pointy56 said: Although the LNM plan shows STAR WODY4B with runway 05, which I understand is a mismatch to the ILS approach, WODY4B is valid for all runways. LNM shows a runway selection dialog when inserting a STAR that is usable for all or parallel runways. You have to select the same runway as for the approach there. I know, not very intuitive. Looks like a good future improvement to avoid this. Or even better let LNM select the STAR automatically. Have to see what can be done to make it easier. Alex Alex' Projects: Little Navmap
January 11, 20242 yr Author I've been trying a few changes to my 'bad' flight plan to see how LNM handles them - I'm still not sure how I was able to save the bad one. Anyway, here are a few observations: 1) The 'bad' flight plan had inconsistent runways for the STAR and the Approach, like this: <STAR> <Name>WODY4B</Name> <Runway>05</Runway> </STAR> <Approach> <Name>B25LF</Name> <ARINC>I25LZ</ARINC> <Runway>25L</Runway> <Type>ILS</Type> <Suffix>Z</Suffix> <Transition>KERKY</Transition> <TransitionType>F</TransitionType> </Approach> 2) If I delete the ILS-Z 25L approach and insert a different approach, in this case ILS-Z 25R (Transition KERKY) the .lnmpln file is updated to show this: <STAR> <Name>WODY4B</Name> </STAR> <Approach> <Name>B25RF</Name> <ARINC>I25RZ</ARINC> <Runway>25R</Runway> <Type>ILS</Type> <Suffix>Z</Suffix> <Transition>KERKY</Transition> <TransitionType>F</TransitionType> </Approach> You will see that the Runway field has been deleted from the STAR details - this actually exports correctly, so does not present a problem. 3) If I simply insert a different approach into the plan, without first deleting the old one, the same type of update occurs, and it again exports correctly. So the bottom line is that with 3.0.1 beta I am no longer seeing the issue that I originally reported; I misunderstood how the output file should look, and can't reproduce the 'bad' file. I don't know if omitting the runway from the STAR information should be classed as an error, but from a practical point of view it doesn't seem to cause any problems. Apologies again for wasting your time with this. Martin Edited January 11, 20242 yr by pointy56
January 11, 20242 yr Hi Martin, the red error message about runway mismatch will appear less often with 3.0.2.beta. I just add a few improvements and adapt the runways now. Means: You add STAR (All) and select runway 10 and then select approach and ILS runway 25. The STAR will change to 25. Same vice versa. If you select ILS 25 and then STAR (All) the runway selection dialog will not show up since the approach defines the runway already. No idea why I did not do this before. So you certainly did not waste my time but rather pointed me to an omission making things unnecessarily complex for the user. Omitting the runway from the STAR is ok. The field is declared optional in LNMPL. LNM does all kind of matching internally to find the right procedure. This is needed due to the different representation of procedures in the simulators. Alex Alex' Projects: Little Navmap
January 12, 20242 yr Author Hi Alex, 3.0.1 beta is working quite well for me, now that I understand what I should be expecting - thanks for your patience. I do have another question for you (inevitably); you said: On 1/10/2024 at 7:36 PM, albar965 said: The four fields define the approach I27R-Y. The approach transition NIE is not saved which is a shortcoming of the MSFS PLN format. I think that I would have expected the transition point, in this case NIE, to have been output as a waypoint in the exported format. This is the case if I download a 'NoProc' version from SimBrief, and if I load the full flight plan into an FMC in MSFS, NIE is set as the last waypoint. So, although the MSFS .pln format doesn't cater for the Transition point in the Approach data, shouldn't it be output as a waypoint in the exported file for completeness? Thanks, Martin
January 12, 20242 yr Hmmm ... good catch. Why is NIE missing in the export? I have to check if MSFS can deal with this and assigns the right transition. LNM does not allow extra waypoints between STAR and approach. Not sure about MSFS. There has been so much back and forth and experimentation with this PLN format that I have lost track of what works and what does not.🙄 Alex Alex' Projects: Little Navmap
February 19, 20242 yr Author Hi Alex, I now using Beta 3.0.2 that I noticed includes the following: Fix for PLN flight plan export in MSFS where transitions were not loaded by MSFS due to a missing waypoint. Example: EDDV, using STAR NIE27 and approach NIE.I27RY or approach SAS.I27RZ. However, I am still finding that the transition point NIE is not being exported in the MSFS file format; please see attached files where I'm specifying a NIE.I27RZ approach (no STAR):FP Files Thanks, Martin Edited February 19, 20242 yr by pointy56 Clarification
February 19, 20242 yr 1 hour ago, pointy56 said: However, I am still finding that the transition point NIE is not being exported in the MSFS file format; please see attached files where I'm specifying a NIE.I27RZ approach (no STAR): Prolly a side effect of another export change. *Sigh* 😑 Thanks for letting me know, Alex Alex' Projects: Little Navmap
February 19, 20242 yr This was only fixed for the case where a STAR was added before the approach. Will fix the case without STAR too. Alex Alex' Projects: Little Navmap
February 19, 20242 yr Author Thanks Alex. I was struggling to work out how to have a STAR and an Approach for EDDV, which may have been part of my original confusion. Having looked at the charts more thoroughly it seems that you use either a STAR or an Approach, but not both together - you learn something new every day 😉 Martin
February 19, 20242 yr Hi Martin, thanks for the files again. I'd rather say you use either a STAR *and* an approach or an approach only (with optional transition). Either way. I think I have this fixed and tested through a bunch of files here. There are probably still some special cases with STAR where this might be wrong. Let me know if you run into something with the MSFS export with the next 3.0.3.rc1. Alex Alex' Projects: Little Navmap
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