Q: So it seems VNCs and VTC's only show navaids for aerodromes, which if thats the case, Im stuck. Help please.

*****

Context: Hello AVSim community, Im coming back after some years away from flight simming. I am learning new tools and new platforms etc. I apologise in advance but in getting up to speed with the new platforms and the latest software Im hopelessly confused and befuddled. Hehe please help out this beginner :) I am currently on MSFS 2020 using Navigraph Charts and SimBrfief. My overall objective was to:

1. Do a small single prop GA flight plan where I find a shorter takeoff runway length preferably unsealed

2. Have some sort of navigation using a VOR/DME

3. Then do a touch and go using an ILS approach (which means a big certified aerodrome no uncertified or ALA's have ils)  to some aerodrome supporting ILS

4. Then proceed to the final destination being a nearby small aerodrome on an NDB approach only

So beyond Navigraph/SimBrief Ive also got the ASA AIP stuff like WAC - VNC - TVC and the ESRA's  to backup from real world.  Knowing my local area I know YSCB (Canberra Australia) has ILS and YBLG (Goulburn Australia) has NDB approach, along with small aerodromes like YPFT (Polo Flat) and YADY (Adaminaby) are starting points

Basic stuff Im getting grief on. Like trying to say "show me all airports in this area with NDB" or "show me all airports with ILS". Then, all the I charts I can find, none of them seem to have NAVAIDS on route, they only have NAVAIDS at aerodromes.  I thought I was using "good" tools where I deeply suspect its me the newbie learning all these new tools as to why Im having issues.

I know there is other NAVAIDS like Williamsdale VOR and Wee Jasper VOR around these areas. I need to know the morse for them an their frequencies etc so how do I do my flightplan for this?

Thanks

3 hours ago, Bathrone said:

Basic stuff Im getting grief on. Like trying to say "show me all airports in this area with NDB" or "show me all airports with ILS". Then, all the I charts I can find, none of them seem to have NAVAIDS on route, they only have NAVAIDS at aerodromes.  I thought I was using "good" tools where I deeply suspect its me the newbie learning all these new tools as to why Im having issues.

I know there is other NAVAIDS like Williamsdale VOR and Wee Jasper VOR around these areas. I need to know the morse for them a their frequencies etc so how do I do my flightplan for this?

There are no navaids in Australia on the route from YSCB to YBLG except Canberra VOR (116.7), which you could fly outbound for a certain distance, but after the signal drops out, you’d have to resort to dead reckoning or pilotage.

Australia, like the US and Europe, has decommissioned an enormous number of VORs and NDBs in recent years. Many navaids that were used in years past simply do not exist anymore. Aeronautical  navigation in the year 2024 is done primarily using GPS. The days when you could fly cross country using VOR and NDB are long gone - especially in Australia.

Williamsdale and Wee Jasper VORs may have existed at one time, but they do not exist any more.

I have found no evidence that there is currently an operational NDB at YBLG. The closest NDB is at YOOM (Moomba), 63 miles to the northwest.(OOM on 227 kHz).

Navigraph has no charts for YBLG. There may be something available from the Australian AIP.

I found one site that lists all operational navaids in Australia. I don’t know how accurate or current it is.

https://ourairports.com/countries/AU/navaids/list.html

Edited March 31, 20242 yr by JRBarrett

Many thanks Jim. Truly appreciate your time - and it seems that I NEED to get up to the times hehe. Big thanks mate

Ive been digging deeper on this and can confirm the following now:

1. I used PlanG V4 to generate a database of everything that MSFS 2024 thinks exists irrespective of what actually exists in the real world, with all the most current MS world updates and sim updates, plus the latest navigraph AIRAC update, I generated everything into a PlanG database and there is no more Wee Jasper VOR or NDB, along with the Williamsdale VOR and NDB theyre all gone.

2. I have confirmed the ASA AIP VNC and VTC charts will only show aerodrome NAVAIDS they wont show outside of an aerodrome even if it did exist, which as you inform me Jim, is super rare with them being largely maintained within aerodromes these days.

3. Curious I took a look on google earth and I can still see the Williamsdale VOR and the DME but I dont know how current the image is within google earth. And, theres the possibility that theyre simply switched off and the towers etc still exist. Im gunna get to the bottom of this and figure out where within the ASA AIP is a current official list of all NAVAIDS in Australia.

4. Sir, there is indeed an NDB approach into YGLB

a) The Navigraph charts shows NDB-A 16-1 for YGLB along with others such as RNP on R22 and R04 mate. Im in the app now I subscribed today.

b) MSFS 2024 in its database knows theres an NDB in YGLB and reports it on 407Khz

c) In real life the ASA AIP has it: https://www.airservicesaustralia.com/aip/current/dap/GLBNB01-175_21MAR2024.pdf

 

I was thinking of coming out south from say YPFT / YBUN / YADY, try to hit the YCBS VOR/DME ASAP on the takeoff/cruise and use the ILS approach for YSCB touch n go, then NDB it to YGLB. Kinda thinking "backup" in case GPS fails etcetc. Plus I just like to geek a bit with having the frequencies all dialled in for VOR DME NDB etc ontop of the new tech

Yes, I misread the destination as YBLG, which is an isolated dirt strip in the middle of the Outback. Should have been YGLB, which is a different matter entirely!

You could track the outbound 031 radial of Canberra VOR and it would take you right to the airport.

In many cases, the infrastructure of decommissioned navaids, such as buildings and antennas, might still be there, but the transmitters have been turned off.

Edited March 31, 20242 yr by JRBarrett

For anyone who comes across this in the future, Australia wide there is no more ground based NAVAIDS outside of aerodromes. The remaining NAVAIDS are all maintained by aerodromes and form the backup BNN in case of GNSS issues.

"In 2016, the Civil Aviation Safety Authority (CASA) mandated the use of Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS) as the primary means of instrument flight rules (IFR) navigation in Australia.

With the reduced reliance on ground-based navigation aids (navaids) as a result, a number of navaids were subsequently decommissioned. The remaining navaid network formed the Backup Navigation Network (BNN), consisting of over 200 navaids at 124 airports across Australia."

https://www.avsef.gov.au/consultations/post-implementation-review-australian-backup-navigation-network