Also this is worth saying since no one has mentioned it yet:  autolands are really not that common (at US airlines, anyway.  I've heard it can be different in some parts of the world).  Statistically, in the US (I just assume you are because we're trying to go to San Jose haha) you've probably never been on an airplane that has done one.  They're really only used when required by low vis (or an occasional currency operation.). For perspective, I'm based in what is probably the foggiest part of the country in the winter, and I would say I do less than ten cat III approaches a year - and some of those are handflown using the HUD for proficiency unless it's truly close to or below 600rvr.  

So, I'm not knocking your desire to do one in the sim or anything; the sim is a sandbox and we all use it to mess around with whatever aspect currently interests us.  It's great for that.  But just figured I'd clarify this, because some folks new to learning about airline aviation have the idea that just because the plane has a certain level of automation, that automation is always used.  Autoland is an example of something that is very rarely used.  On low cat I approaches, some pilots may keep the autopilot engaged to minimums / until seeing the runway, and others prefer to click it off earlier and hand fly at least the final portion of the approach as well as the landing (I'm in this category because I'd rather not have a handful of airplane dumped in my lap at 200ft but it's personal preference.)

As I think you're learning, an increased level of automation does not always result in a workload reduction 😉.  There are times when it is appropriate to use maximum automation, but there are also times when it's appropriate to degrade automation levels, ultimately down to raw data hand flying.  It's just situational.

27 minutes ago, martinboehme said:

As I recall, standard procedure though is to go straight from flaps up to flaps 5, as the limit speed for both is the same anyway. (@Stearmandriver please jump in if I'm getting this wrong.)

Sounds like you've got everything right, except it wouldn't be standard for us to skip flaps 1, but I'm sure this could differ by operator.  My airline likes us to wait until we're within 10kts of flaps maneuver speed for the current flap setting before selecting the next, just to reduce wear on the flaps, but this is an "as able" policy.  If you have a reason to go straight from flaps up to whatever, you can do it (as long as not busting a max flap speed limitation - those aren't optional.)

So typically, we'll only skip flaps 2 (I don't believe anyone anywhere uses flaps 2 because it creates an odd vibration which increases wear) and we'll usually skip flaps 10 (but can use it if we want to.). So the normal sequence of configuration call outs on approach would be: 

"Flaps 1 / flaps 5 / gear down flaps 15 / flaps 25 / flaps 30 / (flaps 40 if using) / landing check"

 

10 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Also this is worth saying since no one has mentioned it yet:  autolands are really not that common (at US airlines, anyway.  I've heard it can be different in some parts of the world).  Statistically, in the US (I just assume you are because we're trying to go to San Jose haha) you've probably never been on an airplane that has done one.  They're really only used when required by low vis (or an occasional currency operation.). For perspective, I'm based in what is probably the foggiest part of the country in the winter, and I would say I do less than ten cat III approaches a year - and some of those are handflown using the HUD for proficiency unless it's truly close to or below 600rvr.  

So, I'm not knocking your desire to do one in the sim or anything; the sim is a sandbox and we all use it to mess around with whatever aspect currently interests us.  It's great for that.  But just figured I'd clarify this, because some folks new to learning about airline aviation have the idea that just because the plane has a certain level of automation, that automation is always used.  Autoland is an example of something that is very rarely used. 

Great info. Much appreciated. No, of course I didn't know that the auto-land is very rarely used at US airlines nor would I ever know since I have no intentions of being a real pilot even if I could. And yes, you are correct. I'm in the US. I think you also mentioned that you hand fly below 18,000 ft in another Avsim thread which surprised me too.

One thing that no one has mentioned also or answered yet is why it is that I did not get a "LAND" indication in the PFD like in this video below at the 3:15 minute mark. Am I supposed to get the LAND indication?  Hopefully someone can comment on the video. Thank you.
 

 

27 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

"Flaps 1 / flaps 5 / gear down flaps 15 / flaps 25 / flaps 30 / (flaps 40 if using) / landing check"

Very helpful about when to apply the gear. Generally, when do you apply Flaps 1? Thank you.

42 minutes ago, anavsun said:

One thing that no one has mentioned also or answered yet is why it is that I did not get a "LAND" indication in the PFD

This is just down to the difference in annunciations between the "fail passive" and "fail operational" autoland systems.  You've currently got the "fail passive" system selected in your PMDG, and your video contains the correct annunciations for that.

If you want to see the Land III annunciation, change your PMDG option to Fail Operational.

As far as I know, most if not all US airlines use the Fail Passive system (especially if they also have the HGS installed; at that point there's little benefit to the Fail Operational).  So I'm not an expert on the Fail Operational system, but I *think* the Land III annunciation denotes that you'll have autopilot centerline tracking after landing, and if you lose the third autopilot that Land III annunciation would degrade to CMD, indicating the dual channel approach we ordinarily do with a Fail Passive system.  I'm not sure about that though; someone may have to correct me there.

44 minutes ago, anavsun said:

Very helpful about when to apply the gear. Generally, when do you apply Flaps 1? Thank you.

Simply put, whenever it's time to slow below the "Up" speed bug, or when you're trying to descend near "up" speed and want more drag.  I know it doesn't sound like 1 degree of flaps does much, but it actually makes a significant lift/drag difference.  Like Martin said, you do get some wing lengthening from the trailing edge flap extension, but what's really important is that flaps 1 fully extends the leading edge flaps (inboard of the engines), and extends the leading edge slats to their "extend" position (vs "full extend"; "extend" is a poorly named intermediate position 😉.). You have an entirely new wing after the leading edge devices extend.

Thanks again @Stearmandriver I went ahead and changed it back to Fail Operational and will do more tests. 

I'm learning a lot.  Additional questions...

1. With so many variables involved at the time of landing (weather, weight, altitude, etc....) it seems to me calculating the landing speed is complicated. With so many things happening quickly during a landing  why doesn't the FMC computer simply adjust the speed automatically (bring the gear and flaps down accordingly as soon as the aircraft reaches the IAF --assuming no changes from ATC)?

2. Along a similar vein, I've been wondering: since the altitude restrictions are in the FMC, why does the FMC still asks for pilot intervention before top of descent and issues an alert to "reset MCP altitude"?? I don't get it. Shouldn't this be automatically adjusted by the FMC given it already knows what the next waypoint altitude restrictions are?

3. When the speed restriction at the FMC is 1000 ft BUT the MCP says 1500 ft, what does the 737 do?  Likewise with speed. If the speed at the FMC say 200 but the MCP has it at 150, what does the 737 do?

4. Is there a way to slew the plane while inside the flight deck? 

 

8 minutes ago, anavsun said:

Thanks again @Stearmandriver I went ahead and changed it back to Fail Operational and will do more tests. 

I'm learning a lot.  Additional questions...

1. With so many variables involved at the time of landing (weather, weight, altitude, etc....) it seems to me calculating the landing speed is complicated. With so many things happening quickly during a landing  why doesn't the FMC computer simply adjust the speed automatically (bring the gear and flaps down accordingly as soon as the aircraft reaches the IAF --assuming no changes from ATC)?

2. Along a similar vein, I've been wondering: since the altitude restrictions are in the FMC, why does the FMC still asks for pilot intervention before top of descent and issues an alert to "reset MCP altitude"?? I don't get it. Shouldn't this be automatically adjusted by the FMC given it already knows what the next waypoint altitude restrictions are?

3. When the speed restriction at the FMC is 1000 ft BUT the MCP says 1500 ft, what does the 737 do?  Likewise with speed. If the speed at the FMC say 200 but the MCP has it at 150, what does the 737 do?

4. Is there a way to slew the plane while inside the flight deck? 

 

1 and 2 can be summed up by the fact that you always want the pilot flying the airplane, not the computer.  Computers are very good at performing a task, but they are lousy at any attempt at overall situational awareness or judgement.  Hence the comical things we see from what we call "AI" today.  More specifically: 

1.  The FMC speed schedule is a very helpful advisory, but the pilots decide what speed to fly and when.  Traffic spacing, weather conditions, mechanical issues etc will always play into which speed is appropriate.  If you're the only plane in the world like in the sim, sure, mindlessly giving the box control of your speed might make sense.. but it definitely does not in reality.  The same is true of configuration changes; not only are they dependent on the speed you want to fly but the drag you want on the airplane.  If I'm on the LENDY arrival into JFK and at 10k over LGA and cleared down to 1500ft and told I'm number one, the gear is coming down at 10,000ft.  It's all situational and there are more factors than the box can consider.

2.  There are many more considerations on an altitude change than just when the computer wants to go down.  The biggest one is probably traffic.  If the FMC thinks that you've hit your TOD and it wants to start down, that's great... But if crossing traffic is climbing to 1,000ft below you, you probably DON'T want to start down just yet 😉.  This is the kind of thing that makes a lot more sense in reality where you're sharing the sky with thousands of other aircraft, but the convention is that pilots will always set the altitude they're cleared to in the MCP.  That's a safeguard so you can leave the plane in VNAV and come down on a profile for instance, but if you're cleared to descend via a procedure except maintain an altitude for traffic, you set that altitude in the MCP to guarantee it will be honored.  There are a lot of examples like this.

3.  This is a harder question, especially if you're in VNAV.  In general, if the MCP speed window is "open" (displaying a speed), that speed will be flown.  If the speed window is "closed" (blank), the FMC speed schedule will be flown.  In general.  Not always.  😉.

4.  Slew exists in the simulator, though be advised it doesn't always play well with complex add-ons.  I think the default key to enter slew is Y.  Check your keybinding menu for the controls.

18 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

If you're the only plane in the world...

After a plane is cleared for IAF, isn't the plane for all intents and purpose the only plane in the world or in a controlled 'box' in a manner of speaking? ie. every situation has already been cleared by the ATC and by the pilot (eg. holds) and all that remains to be done is to autoland the plane according to very strict rules (or algorithms programmed in computers) laid out in the approach charts.  I'm thinking after IAF, not much can change in the situation. For example, landing a plane after IAF I would think, would be far easier compared to the situational awareness needed and faced by self-driving cars in heavy traffic nowadays where other drivers do not rely on officially approved and frequently updated approach charts.  

 

37 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

There are many more considerations on an altitude change than just when the computer wants to go down.  The biggest one is probably traffic.  If the FMC thinks that you've hit your TOD and it wants to start down, that's great... But if crossing traffic is climbing to 1,000ft below you, you probably DON'T want to start down just yet 😉.  This is the kind of thing that makes a lot more sense in reality where you're sharing the sky with thousands of other aircraft

But aircraft have TCAS and weather radar?
 

41 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

Slew exists in the simulator, though be advised it doesn't always play well with complex add-ons.  I think the default key to enter slew is Y.  Check your keybinding menu for the controls.

Yes, the default key is 'y'. I use it. The problem is that it apparently can be used only in external view. I was wondering if I can slew the plane while inside the flight deck so that I can observe the 'diamonds' and other instruments react to slew movements.

5 hours ago, martinboehme said:

It looks like an eight because it's a seven-segment display, but I think it's supposed to be a "B" for "below" (indicating that the speed the aircraft is actually maintaining is below the speed you selected in the speed window).

@martinboehme I've been re-thinking this comment. I think there was another comment made in this message thread that the FMC is in control of the aircraft when the MCP speed window is blank. Conversely, I assume that implies that if the MCP speed window is not blank, it's the MCP that is in control of the aircraft. If that assumption is true, then why would both the FMC and the MCP display different speeds at the same time?  Shouldn't it be mutually exclusive?  I am probably over-thinking this and confusing myself in the process. lol. I hope someone can clear up my confusion. 🙂

7 minutes ago, anavsun said:

Yes, the default key is 'y'. I use it. The problem is that it apparently can be used only in external view. I was wondering if I can slew the plane while inside the flight deck so that I can observe the 'diamonds' and other instruments react to slew movements.

Right, good point, it does switch you to external view, doesn't it?  I can remember having that problem too.  I remember full pausing the sim, then slewing a bit, then un-slewing to re-enter the paused cockpit to see where I was, then repeating etc... And it is a pain. I'd be interested to know if this can be done also. 

If you find you're doing a lot of approach or other practice that involves wanting to reposition the plane, there's a great app called FSIPanel.  It's not real cheap though and it does have a learning curve, but it's very powerful and convenient.  Might take a look; I love it. 

As far as the rest, specifically IF you've been cleared for the approach, AND you've verified all altitude restrictions in the box against the approach chart, AND you're in LNAV and VNAV, you can set field elevation in the MCP because you know that VNAV will honor altitude restrictions.  In any case where ALL of those conditions have not been met, you must set your lowest cleared altitude in the MCP.  There is otherwise a threat of being too low.

As far as being anywhere outside of the approach environment, no, we absolutely cannot have a computer taking the decision making authority away from the human pilots.  That's what they're there for, and today's computers cannot approach the decision making of a human crew with a combined 30,000+ hours of flight time and decades of experience, plus an air traffic controller.  From what I read, most analysts think computers will never have this ability, but regardless, we sure aren't anywhere near it now.  There is rarely a flight that goes by without the crew needing to intervene because the automation is doing something wrong, or simply not good enough.  Specifically, TCAS and wx radar are just tools; they provide information but do not and cannot make decisions for you.  Spurious TCAS alerts are not uncommon, for instance, and weather radar requires some actual weather knowledge for the picture to have meaning.  It's not as simple as "stay out of the red", and to be honest is something we could train better as an industry.  Professional mariners, for instance, have a much deeper level of meteorology training than pilots. 

Ultimately though, it comes down to: automation is a wonderful tool if it can be managed effectively, but it will never replace human judgement and understanding.  

7 minutes ago, anavsun said:

I assume that implies that if the MCP speed window is not blank, it's the MCP that is in control of the aircraft. If that assumption is true, then why would both the FMC and the MCP display different speeds at the same time?  Shouldn't it be mutually exclusive? 

The FMC is displaying an optimized speed schedule - unless there are speed restrictions coded at waypoints.  Other than that, it's showing you what it thinks is the most efficient decel schedule that meets minimum stable approach requirements and gets you on the ground burning the least amount of gas.  Basically, it wants to stay as fast as it can for as long as it can.  

But the computer is just a tool, providing advisory information.  It doesn't get to do anything unless the pilots allow it to have control, and there are numerous reasons why that speed schedule won't work.  If the pilots have the speed window open, it's because they need different speeds than what's in the box.  This is very common; more common than being able to fly an FMC profile without modification in fact. 

Now the AFDS itself (not the FMC) does have some basic over speed and alpha floor (under speed) protections built into it, and these are where you'll see the A and B in the MCP speed window.  Ideally, you should not be seeing those though; they indicate that you're commanding a speed the airplane believes it should not do - not for efficiency, but for safety.

9 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

The FMC is displaying an optimized speed schedule - unless there are speed restrictions coded at waypoints.  Other than that, it's showing you what it thinks is the most efficient decel schedule that meets minimum stable approach requirements and gets you on the ground burning the least amount of gas.  Basically, it wants to stay as fast as it can for as long as it can.  

But the computer is just a tool, providing advisory information.  It doesn't get to do anything unless the pilots allow it to have control, and there are numerous reasons why that speed schedule won't work.  If the pilots have the speed window open, it's because they need different speeds than what's in the box.  This is very common; more common than being able to fly an FMC profile without modification in fact. 

Now the AFDS itself (not the FMC) does have some basic over speed and alpha floor (under speed) protections built into it, and these are where you'll see the A and B in the MCP speed window.  Ideally, you should not be seeing those though; they indicate that you're commanding a speed the airplane believes it should not do - not for efficiency, but for safety.

Ok, so for speed info there's three sources of information for speed:
1. In the instrument panels themselves in the speed tape and PFD for the plane moving through the air (for IAS, IAS, MACH, GS info)
2. the FMC (the computer suggested optimal speed)
3. the MCP (the speed commanded by the pilot)

Do I have the above correct?

6 hours ago, martinboehme said:

It looks like an eight because it's a seven-segment display, but I think it's supposed to be a "B" for "below" (indicating that the speed the aircraft is actually maintaining is below the speed you selected in the speed window). There's also an "A" that can appear here to indicate that the speed the aircraft is maintaining is above the speed you selected.

I was trying to differentiate MCP and FMC speeds in my mind and did a quick search of the web and came across this web page (see below):

The info below adds to my confusion. It has four(!) different definitions for a flashing "8" (and not a "B" as @martinboehme indicated). I'm wondering where the website got their info from. I don't believe the info is available in the PMDG manuals.
 

Source: (B737 Mode Control Panel - AviationHunt)

MCP Speed Condition Symbols

• Overspeed or underspeed limiting symbol appears when commanded speed cannot be reached.
• Underspeed limiting (flashing character “A”) –
  • Minimum speed
• Overspeed limiting (flashing character “8”) –
  • Vmo or Mmo limit
  • Landing gear limit
  • Flap limit.
     

59 minutes ago, Stearmandriver said:

If you find you're doing a lot of approach or other practice that involves wanting to reposition the plane, there's a great app called FSIPanel.  It's not real cheap though and it does have a learning curve, but it's very powerful and convenient.  Might take a look; I love it. 

A very nice suggestion. It's U$29.95 for the Standard edition. They do not mention availability of a version for the 737NG (FSiPanel2024 - FSiPanel - Train Like Real Pilots)