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GusRodrigues

Design Resources

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Here is a brief request for anyone (but especially very experienced modelers and designers here):It is beyond difficult to get good reference materials on modern civil aircraft.Any tips for the following information (looking for "eureka" breakthroughs if you got 'em):1) 3-views for external modeling. Most you can find are really coarse.2) panel diagrams and functions. Of course I could buy the airline manuals out there, but some more info would be great3) FDE modeling. Through this forum I've learnd of the FAA Type Certificate Data Sheets, but what else do you usually go on?I realize that it sounds as if I'm asking of the "kitchen sink" here, but I find very little information out there for these important design resources.Are there any secrets? Or, is the answer that the great models come about through:1) Uncanny gifts of perception and art2) Insider resources (you work at the airline and can get out the tape measure)3) Loooooong, hard and frustrating hours of trail and error (God, please let it NOT be this one).Thank you,J-

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>3) FDE modeling. Through this forum I've learnd of the FAA Type >Certificate Data Sheets, but what else do you usually go on?FAA TCDS, Aircraft Performance Manual and Aircraft manual (limitations and checklists).afther that, I went at avhistory board and try to research the flight dynamics at airfile decoded: www.avhistory.org/scripts/MegaBBS/forum-view.asp?forumid=5

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>Here is a brief request for anyone (but especially very>experienced modelers and designers here):>>It is beyond difficult to get good reference materials on>modern civil aircraft.>>Any tips for the following information (looking for "eureka">breakthroughs if you got 'em):>>1) 3-views for external modeling. Most you can find are>really coarse.>>2) panel diagrams and functions. Of course I could buy the>airline manuals out there, but some more info would be great>>3) FDE modeling. Through this forum I've learnd of the FAA>Type Certificate Data Sheets, but what else do you usually go>on?>>I realize that it sounds as if I'm asking of the "kitchen>sink" here, but I find very little information out there for>these important design resources.>>Are there any secrets? Or, is the answer that the great>models come about through:>>1) Uncanny gifts of perception and art>2) Insider resources (you work at the airline and can get out>the tape measure)>3) Loooooong, hard and frustrating hours of trail and error>(God, please let it NOT be this one).>>Thank you,>>J-Research for FS, much like any major project, can be time consuming and/or expensive and often is the bulk of the early project work. A lot depends on your "cut off point". - How accurate do you want to get? (are you going to sell the model?)- How knowledgble are you regarding the quirks of FS? (Can you translate real world values to FS?)- What skill level of modeling do you posess and what tools (will you be using a "lite" modeling tool like FSDS/GMAX or something more studio quality).Generally, the third solution you posted, looong hours of trial and error is a pre-requisit for almost everything if you are not already a guru ;)Mostly its either let your fingers do the walking and search search search (you will be amazed at the obscure sources you will find), or be prepared to open you wallet and buy what you need from a clearing house or from the manufacturer/distributer.Generally once you have something up and working, asking questions here will help you fine tune your project, as many peole are willing to share. We just need something to work with before we can help. I guess what I am saying is, if you are looking for the Holy Grail, you found it. Its places like this. :)CheersShad

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Number 3, though not the answer you were looking for, is what I belive the correct answer. Or at least what you will spend most of your time doing, with research taking up the rest

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Same view here, No. 3, unfortunately. I have no clue as to how often I have reloaded and tested my birdy over designing and updating it through now 4 consecutive versions of FS in the course of now 6 years...I am lucky enough though to have been able to directly contact the current operators of the plane I was interested in modeling (the internet and email is such a resource these days...) so that I was able to photocopy basically the complete Pilot's Operating Handbook plus 1:10th scale original drawings. However it was then time to measure every single point I wanted to model in AF99 from the drawings and insert them into the program by hand, 3 numbers for each point...And at the end of it, after several months of meticulous measuring and hacking I had to erase about half those points again because I realised AF99 was not up to creating FS models with such a high poly count at the time x( Trial and error, trial and error, trial and error AGAIN:-( Rethink, investigate thoroughly, trial and another error, think again, trial and BINGO, detail x now works. So on to the next detail ...But then the feeling of satisfaction when finally having completed the task to one's content, ahhhhhhhh :-) :( :+

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Welcome to the fray :-)RESEARCHI believe the research to be the most important step. Information and resources gained here will answer thousands of questions and help keep you on course (avoid large investments of time in the wrong direction). I usually invest 1-2 months in research. If at all possible, try to locate a real world pilot who might assist with everything from resources to beta testing.Check nearby museums for availability of aircraft. Write to the Smithsonian who will provide technical drawings for up to three aircraft per month. They have a limited selection but many to choose from.Ideal solution? Check your local airports(s) for aircraft. You may find the aircraft you want to do and an owner who would be excited about the project. Availability of the real thing for copy of the POH and hundreds of reference pictures makes a huge difference. Good photos can be used for texturing as well. Otherwise, locate an aircraft and take a day trip for this valuable input.Use the web search tools to scour the network. Lots of reference stuff available. You may be fortunate to find an aircraft club as well. This was a tremendous help to us with the Aero Commanders. They provided factory drawings, specs, paint schemes, technical data, everything we asked for and there were plenty real world pilots to send pictures, and alpha/beta test.I hope this helps.

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Thanks for the all the replies. I figured that nothing about it would be easy - even the SDKs are a nightmare to make sense of sometimes. While I am no stranger to flightsim, my desire to operate on the development side grows stronger.Presently, I am interested in some of the Aircraft that EMBRAER are putting out. However, it is not always easy to come by performance data and design drawings for modern aircraft.The answers lie in this matter where they lie for all matters: research, dedication and long hours of learning (usually by mistake).I dabbled with AF99 way back when and found that the tools for flight sime a few versions back were actually easier to use. To give a sense of how long I've "dabbled," my first tool was Apollo's flight shop.

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>Thanks for the all the replies. I figured that nothing about>it would be easy - even the SDKs are a nightmare to make sense>of sometimes. >SDK is just a part of the dark side of the knowledge in MSFS.I learn more at avsim and avhistory forums then reading SDK (I use sometimes just for reference... nothing more)...>While I am no stranger to flightsim, my desire to operate on>the development side grows stronger.>It

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Hi,I appreciate your input. So, you think I can just contact Embraer and they'd be willing to give out operating manuals and schematics?

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To answer first your general question (Tom A.... close your eyes now), the Finest Source and Repository of all FlightSim Modelling Knowledge is, of course, the Freeflight Design Shop ..aka FFDS .. (http://www.freeflightdesign.com), the One True Site dedicate to flightsim modelling ... (Tom A - open your eyes).Of course, I'm (only half) joking a bit.*In general* you'll find that your best source of flightsim modelling knowledge is design forums such as this one. I do mention FFDS because it's probably the oldest site dedicated only to flightsim modelling. The site does include tutorials, source files (you'll feel comfortable because we still have some old afx files) for both FSDS and gmax, a "Resources Section" and the world renowned FFDS Design Forum.I will be the first to admit (grudgingly) that if you want to learn the esoterics of XML gauges and panel building, you must bokmark THIS AVSIM Design Forum (Stop gloating, Tom). You can get good visual modelling help here, as well.My favorite source of three view resources and plans is, curiously enough, the WWW. Most flightsim modellers have compiled their lists of favorite sites that offer anything from basic three views to scale drawings. Most of the web sites, though, are focused on military aircraft. The Design Resources Section at FFDS lists some.Also, being a pack rat, I've accumulated encyclopedic books (Complete Encyclopedia of World Aircraft, illustrated Encyclopedia of Commercial Aircraft; several of JANE'S All the World's Aircraft (including a 1952-53 issue, and no, no one can have it), as well as magazines (Scale Aircraft Modelling, Scale Aviation Modelling and naturally, Aeroplane Monthly); for Civilian aircraft, I've collected AIR International, AIR Enthusiast, the advantages of which are three views and data on not only production aircraft, but designs that didn't make it (twin-engined L-1011; T-tailed 767 proposal, ....)If you want specific information - scale drawings/aircraft data, googling usually comes up with good results.If you're stuck in some part of the modelling process - ASK! There are masochistic folks lurking that really like to help others.The Design Forums in most of the major (and certain smaller "focused flightsim") sites are good places to start asking. The top modellers in each of the areas are usually lurking there.I make it a habit of doing at least daily "passes" through the AVSIM and other Design Forums .... If you want the "latest" from Embraer (and I'm assuming you're talking about the baby bizjets that are coming up), I'd suggest you keep an eye on AIR International magazine. Sooner or later they'll come up with a decent three view and basic data. Writing to Embraer *may* however, get good results. Some manufacturers are more "flightsim friendly" than others.Good luck, and welcome back!

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