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Guest Richard Hill

Ground2K Landclass Question

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Hi,I have been using Ground2K over the last couple of days, I think it's a very useful program and I like the idea of setting up one background image for so many modifications (with georefernced nima data the coordinates given seem very accurate).Some of my lod13 areas do not have land under them, is Ground2K able to fix this, or will I have to use something like landclass assistant.The program seems to have the option of doing this, but when the bgl's are created a runtime error occurs and the program crashes.Thanks, David

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Hello,I used Ground2k for a test creating an island in the Pacific. The poly worked fine and the beachline was visible in FS2k2, but when I tried to put a landclass so that the island itself would show up I had the impression that there is a small bug: Ground2k seems to place the LOD13 square not exactly in the right place, but to move it to one square to the West, so I had to put some landclass more to the East of my island. I did not check it with TFMView, but that was the impression I had from the test with FS2k2.But anyway it is a great program that makes it rather easy to lay out polygons. One small setback: for the shoreline you cannot enter any other texture than those in the terraintextures configuration file. I tried to draw coral reefs and made a nice "shore" texture for this purpose, but in order to use it I had to change the Ground2k output manually. Maybe that can be fixed in the next version?Many thanx to Christian for this program.-osman

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Hi osman!One problem with Landclass BGLs is that you are placing vertices for the assignments. Another problem, is that whenever a water assignment is given to a landclass vertex, all 4 surrounding groundtiles are 'stamped' with water... with no blending to the surrounding groundtiles. ( Odd that there is a "water" landclass ).So 1 water vertex will influence 4 surrounding groundtiles. CUSTOM assignments do the same thing. And there is no blending, but rather an overriding of the other groundtiles.So, generally in the middle of the ocean, you may need to assign 4 verticies as land, to guarantee the land will show up. Near shore, you usually butt a vertex assignment next to one already there, so you won't see the problem. it just pushes the water verticies farther away.This assumes a 257x257 vertex grid for landclass assignment. Programs that use 256x256 will "resample" the grid, and you may get more than 1 vertex assigned.With TMFViewer, landclass appears as colored squares... but if you also load an LWM poly, and turn the grid on, you'll see the LOD13 verticies of the LWMs fall directly in the center of the landclass squares... so the landclass can be seen to mark the LOD13 verticies.Water and CUSTOM assignments dominate groundtiles surrounding them, land assignments are submissive, and attempt to blend with other land verticies.In short, there isn't anything wrong with Ground2K, or resample, or LWMs... it's just the way it is.Dick

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Hi,I am still playing with Ground2K, and getting on ok with most aspects of it. My scenery covers four lod8 cells, and I was dreading doing the shorelines, but I have more or less finished them and the coast itself in a day.The one thing I cant figure out is adding landclass to lod13 areas that do not already contain landclass. I can do this using landclass assistant, but think I will end up with a separate bgl for each lod8 cell.I have trouble understanding the notes that accompany Ground2K, but I thought selecting the LC button and filling some areas would result in a landclass bgl (it does create the raw files).Am I missing something here?.Also can the landclass for four lod8 cells be made into one bgl.Thanks, David

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Hi David.For landclass, the solution is very simple. Landclass is one thing the NEW resample does well.Make a folder called 'Ground2K_Landclass'... you can put it right inside your Ground2K folder. Move the INF and Raw files to this folder. Find the New resample, and copy it to that folder... ( rename it "NewResample.exe" so you don't mix it up with the older version). Now drag'n'drop the INF file onto the NewResample icon. It makes a tiny BGL of about 2k in size. Rename this BGL as "DavidLC_1.bgl"... or some other good name. Make a 'scenery' sub-folder...DO NOT make texture sub-folder. Make it right inside the 'Ground2K_Landclass', if you like.Move your "DavidLC_1.bgl" to this 'scenery' sub-folder. Delete all those old INF and RAW files. ( Ground2K can remake them if you need them ).Add the 'Ground2K_Landclass' scenery folder with the Scenery Library inside FS2002. As long as 'Ground2K_Landclass' is active in the Library, you can just drop more landclasses into it, as you like... or delete them.Whenever you start the sim, the new landclasses will be added.Dick

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Hi Dick,Thanks for the advice... it almost worked.I did as you suggested and used the new resample but I think I am slightly unlucky, although I have four lod8 cells, they are in different areas (lod5 ?).I noticed that when Ground2K generated its files it made two raw files, named with the areas (ie; LC_001_002.raw, LC_003_004.raw). But the program writes one inf file, when it has two areas it overwrites the inf file with the data for the second area.I had had to make one bgl, delete all the landclass from the second area, and then make the second bgl (does that make sense?). Even then I dont think I've filled every piece of land where the two cells join.I did this my copying TmpLC.Inf from the temp folder to Ground2K_Landclass folder, drag n drop and the new bgl is in the temp folder.If you can follow what I am saying, it would be nice if the author, in a future version of Ground2K, could do as you suggested, and have a different directory for landclass, with the new resample. And then have the program save the two raw files and two inf files (LC_001_002.raw, LC_001_002.inf etc.).Thanks, David.

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Back again, always seem to be whinging lately.I have solved part of the problem by having Ground2K save the two

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Hi David.I think I've got another "trick" for your landclass:&l;Destination&r;LOD = 5DestDir = "C:Program FilesGround2KGround2KLandclass"DestBaseFileName = MylandclassUseSourceDimensions = 0NorthLat = 33.7500SouthLat = 28.1250WestLong = -120.0000EastLong = -116.2500&l;Source&r;Type = MultiSourceNumberOfSources = 2 &l;Source1&r;Type = ClassU8SourceDir = "C:Program FilesGround2KGround2KLandclass"SourceFile = "Raw1.raw"Lat = 33.7500Lon = -120.0000NumOfCellsPerLine = 257NumOfLines = 257CellXdimensionDeg = .0146484375CellYdimensionDeg = .010986328125&l;Source2&r;Type = ClassU8SourceDir = "C:Program FilesGround2KGround2KLandclass"SourceFile = "Raw2.raw"Lat = 30.9375Lon = -120.0000NumOfCellsPerLine = 257NumOfLines = 257CellXdimensionDeg = .0146484375CellYdimensionDeg = .010986328125This is multisourcing. It should cover the gap.Dick

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Hi Dick,It was nice to only have one bgl for both lod 5 areas, but now I have the bottom row of the upper lod 5 missing, and the top row of lower lod 5 missing. So now I have doubled the distance of the gap :).I think I'll have to did with LandClass Assistant, seems to work better with 256 raw files.David.

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Thanks a lot for people who answer to the questions.I'm busy with my job, with the E-mails I receive and the Ground2K developpement going on.For Landclass, I have done many tests with the old and the new Resample.exe; Finally I have chosen the old release, but in Ground2K, I have named Resample.exe as ResampleV11.exe in the case I change or I have to change for some options, Waterclass working only with the old version. Of course, for me, it's easier to use the new version, the bgls being generated immediatly by Resample.exeEach .raw file corresponds to a LOD5; You can reuse the .raw files and complete each of them when working with a new project. I have also thought that it would easier to have a centralized folder for Landclass/waterclass Bgls because of the needed priority in the folders.Developping is always a choice among different solutions.Note : if you have a runtime error, send me the corresponding .LWM with your error message; I don't need the background Bmp.Christian

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Hi David.To "echo" what Christian has indicated, why not e-mail me your LWM file, so I can see what it does on this end?mailto:ludowr@charter.netDick

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Hi Dick,I was just going to take you up on your kind offer, I zipped the files to send you, then thought I would check something before I mailed them.Attached is a jpg conversion of the "top raw". The pixels at the bottom should butt up to the pixels at the top of the "lower raw". When I zoomed in on the area I saw a one pixel gap. It seems that Ground2K has generated the top raw with all the pixels shifted up one pixel. I fixed that and it fitted perfectly.Would it be possible for you to confirm this? a bug in Ground2K?. The only thing I can't figure is why the top row of pixels on the "lower raw" are not missing.David(Ground2K v1.2 07/02/03)

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Hi David.It's possible Christian's routine is "off" a little.For instance, you can select an LOD 13 area for landclass with Ground2k... but technically that isn't right. You select the vertex at the intersection of the LOD13 Areas.The actual "square" of influence is LOD13 sized... but is centered on the intersection ( vertex ) of the LOD13 Areas. TMFViewer clearly shows this.So I'm not surprised the landclass registration is a bit off... Dick

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Hi DavidHow have you fixed that ? it's vey interesting to know.Yes, we determine Landclass for a LOD13, knowing that in fact the result is shifted with 1/2 LOD13 North and West.Of course, is easy to change the grid in Ground2K (I will do that), but we do not solve the problem at the LOD5 borders (try N0W45)I have also tested a third possibility 256x256 with other parameters (CellX/Ydimensions), It looks better at the LOD5 borders, but the shift witdh is greater.John Cillis also has changed these parameters in the last version. For the moment, as I know, nobody has founded the right solution.Christian

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Hi Christian.Landclass is a little awkward to control. I've written before about our problems visualizing vector graphics, rather than raster graphics.But David's problem could easily have been avoided, if he would have made his island with a VTP poly ( with a layer of 8 ). His shorelines would have then needed to be layer 9.VTP polys "normally" paint on the land ( with layer 4 for airport backgrounds or CUSTOM uses ).But VTP layers 8-63 will paint a hard surface on anything... water included! The only restriction is the vertical flipping bug, and no landclass blending.A usual, there is always more than 1 way to do things with LWMs and VTPs. ;)That said, I think David did find a very good solution.. and a good clue for us to follow when we have landclass problems.============At the edges of an LOD5 cell, the landclass is abruptly sliced off! A cure is to make sure you use transparent #254 at the edges. Another cure is to use multiple sources, and a larger destination area, as I outlined above.The problem is very pronounced at the corners of the LOD5 cell. The corner vertex will blend the texture in towards the single corner LOD13 Area.. but the surrounding 3 LOD13 Areas ( outside the LOD5 cell ) are abruptly using their default landclass... and blending their cells outwardly, away from the corner vertex.The way to avoid this is to never stop assignments at the edges or corners... better to leave them as #254... or continue them into the next LOD5 cell, and surround them there with #254 ( using multiple sources to resample ).============MS avoided all this, by using a single source for there landclass, and a single destination ( I done that as well, as a test ). My source was HUGE! ( 933,120,000 bytes ) :-xxrotflmao The INF was simple:; World.inf; Huge source[source]Type = ClassU8SourceDir ="."SourceFile = "goge2_0ll.raw"Lon = -179.99999999Lat = 89.99999999NumOfCellsPerLine = 43200NumOfLines = 21600CellXdimensionDeg=0.0083335262390333109562721359290724CellYdimensionDeg=0.0083337191536645215056252604287236[Destination]DestDir = "."DestBaseFileName = "World"UseSourceDimensions = 0NorthLat = 89.99999999SouthLat = -89.99999999EastLong = 179.99999999WestLong = -179.99999999It took about 25 minutes to compile on my system. The cell dimensions are { degreespan / { pixels - 1 } } ( the cells are always 1 less than the verticies ).I've also used this huge source, and a single LOD5 destination. That works just fine, and the compilation by resample takes only a few seconds!Dick

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Hi Christian,As Dick pointed out, I did manage to bridge the gap.The area I am modelling covers four lod 8 cells, 2 up, 2 down. The raw file in my post above is the upper raw file. The bottom of this should join with the lower raw without a gap (it is also at the junction of 2 lod 5 areas). If you open the raw file posted above in a paint program and zoom in on the small filled area, you will see a 1 pixel gap to the edge of the image.I moved the whole image in the upper raw file down 1 pixel, and using dicks multisource suggestion, the gap was fixed.Thanks for the superb program, David.

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Dick;A little off the subject but, I have given up on TerraScene. I would like to know a good source for Maps used in Ground2K. I could get 7.5 maps but that would be several hundred. Is their a place where say 1 Degree maps could be downloaded. It would be great if one could use LULC and DLG data or even Shape files.Richard;

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