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Strange Effect on Textures (SeePic)

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Hi guyshttp://forums.avsim.com/user_files/10201.jpgJust curious about the diagonal lines on the walls of the hanger and the gables, in the texture they contain vertical lines, suspect this is what is causing the effect. It seems to deminish when viewing becomes more right angled.I have heard of a term ' bleed through ' might this be applicable hereIs there any solution, texture 1s 24Bit Dxt1 without alpha,512*512.Any thoughts appreciatedRegardsDave

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cheers Arno, I never like to relie on you, But I know you help if you canIts satisfying to know that it is normal, if not annoying!!!Still, I guess your not susposed to notice things like this making an app/landingThanks againDave

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I don't know if you have the mipmapping on? I think that reduces the effect a lot.

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Dave,I think it is called Moire effect and that is happening, because You have lines close togethe. try correcting those mip-maps You have.Best regards,Goran BrumenFS Slovenija 2002 teamhttp://slovenia.avsim.net

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Try lowering the contrast between background and line colours in your bitmap and even put in random small breaks in the lines. Still gives the corrugated iron look but cuts down on the "strobing" effect as your point ov view changes. Tony

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Hi GuysThanks for all your suggestions, my 'Mipmapping' was offI don't fully understand Mipmaps, which I assume are more to do with Dxt's textures than 8bitThats typical that my determination to get good detail, results in an adverse effect which is counteracting my efforts!!!In the screen shot below, it makes me wonder whether you get better results by applying a single colour, bar the rooflights.!!!http://forums.avsim.com/user_files/10933.jpgThanks for the helpI shall need to experiment more with this contrast theory between the vertical lines, but guessed these lines would have some part to playRegardsDave

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Mipmaps are textures that incorporate smaller textures that will be shown at greater distances. there are 2 reasons why you should use mipmaps (and turn mipmapping on):- If a texture gets far away it ony renders to a few pixels. That can cause visual problems like the moire you saw, if the texture is very big. Other problems are dominant pixels showing at great distances, eg you get pixels 'jumping' around a lot. With mipmaps a smaller texture is used, which fixes that problem.- You save texture memory, since you really don't need highly detailed textures on buildings far away.Cheers, Christian

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Hi ChristianThanks for your help, I had been confused about Mipmapping on or off, doesn't surprise meMipmapping 'on', does, as you suggest remove this effect and wow thats great!!!!However, why are there always down sides to things, in the screenshots below, as a result the text on the Fuel Tank is blurred. This may be why it was turned off, because of this effect on the Runway centreline, although this is not as obvious as it is on the text on the tank.http://forums.avsim.com/user_files/11049.jpghttp://forums.avsim.com/user_files/11050.jpgThe texture 'Total' is a Dxt1(no Alpha) using DXTBmpIs there anything I can do to resolve this If I had to choose between the two, the removal of the 'Moire' effect is greatso thanks to you allDave

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Well, the blurriness comes from the fact that the mipmaps are autogenerated. Usually, that works fine, but in some cases (sharp borders like your red text on white), the auto-algorithmn doesn't work very well. You can either live with it, or create your own mipmaps and import those into imagetool. That way you have full control over the mipmap creation.Cheers, Christian

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Hi CristianThanks for getting back to meHow possible is it to alter the bitmaps, esspecially if it is 'only' text Are there any guidence/tutorials on this or am I the onlt fussy FS Scenery designer out here or there!!!Appreciate any helpRegardsDave

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A tutorial is not really needed on this.The only thing you must do is make all the mipmaps yourself, so you must resize your texture in your paint program. After that you can change the smaller image like you want.Then in ImageTool there is an option to important the mipmaps manual and then you select the smaller images you have made.

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Hi ArnoThat sounds great, even I think I can handle that, I'll give it a go!!!The Mipmapping turned 'on' really helps with the possible 'Moire' effectPerfection is possible:-smile12 CheersDave

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Yes, Arno is right. Just want to add that when you resize in Photoshop (and probably other programs) you can select the 'resample' option. Your choice will control the blurriness, so have a play with that.Christian

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Hi ChristianThanks for your extra thoughts, in paintshop pro 7 the Resample methods seem to fair better than the Pixel/smart Resizing methodsBut in paintshop pro 7, I tend to prefer the demformation tool, which allows reshaping in real time, although proberly doesn't return such good results as resamplingI have been searching the archives, and it seems to me that their is alot of discussion regarding Mipmaps, regarding the frame rates they do actually deliver, offset against the the bluriness that comes with them.Read an excellent reply by gerrish, which as always was very informedabout mip's and Dxt'sQuite a few people seem to lean towards 1 mip level may be this would make my text 'Total' clearer, I'll give it a tryHope I have open a can of worms on mips:-ukliam Cheers:-beerchug Dave

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>Mipmapping 'on', does, as you suggest remove this effect and>wow thats great!!!!>>However, why are there always down sides to things, in the>screenshots below, as a result the text on the Fuel Tank is>blurred. This may be why it was turned off, because of this>effect on the Runway centreline, although this is not as>obvious as it is on the text on the tank.Hello Dave,I had the same problem, eg, I would like to turn mip maps OFF on a texture by texture basis. I wanted to have MIPMAPS=ON but, for a particular texture, I would like to have it as a crispy texture. I think that making your own mips and importing them to your texture with ImageTool or other, will not do the job. You still will have the blurr!Unfortunately the SCASM command to turn mips OFF never worked for me. Either I had used it wrongly or it is not supported by FS2002.The solution that I used for getting a particular crispy texture was:a) make the texture 255 (not 256) colors maximum! If you have text may be you only have a dozen of colors on a background! If you have a landscape texture it is tricky to have 255 colors only, but it is possible!With PSP5 this is done by "reduce to 256 colors" and checking "the number of used colors". Take notice of the pointer (the pallete index) that represents one of the unused colors!:( save the texture as an 8 bit standard bitmap format!c) open the small programme TRANSP.EXE and browse to your bitmap! Then write the color index of the unused color and set opacity = 0!Normally FS will autogenerates the mips when it founds a texture without mips! But if the texture is 8-bit standard and "colorkey transparency" is present, FS fails to recreate the mips!I used this method for markings (text or else) as in:http://www.ptsim.com/madeira/mad835.jpghttp://www.ptsim.com/madeira/mad813.jpgThe programme TRANSP.EXE can be found here:http://www.ptsim.com/downloads/Transp.zipRegards, Luis

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Hi LuisThanks for your reply, nice work(Screenshots), did you incorporate the the different levels(Mesh) and car parks in your scenery yourself. I always admire you guys that take on the multi-plicity of these large Airfields, with their airbridges and othe inter-conecting Dubreys....I'll try the download, and give it a try. Sounds familiar from previous searches in the archives on mip'sRegardsDave

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Another alternative is to use mipmaps selectively. In your example, use it on the hangar, but make a seperate texture for the fuel tank. With the fuel tank texture, turn the mipmaps off. This will retain the sharpness. If you are using a small-sized bitmap (say, 64x64) then you won't be hurting you framerates noticeably, since your texture is already pretty small.Also, you could go the other way, and use a large bitmap for the fuel tank, then the mipmap-bluriness-effect won't be as noticable, but this would be an ineffecient use of textures, I think.I ran into this problem with my Buriram scenery. I was using mipmap textures for my ground surface and runway, but my runway lines were useless under mipmaps. So, I created seperate textures for the lines, which I left "un-mipped". I was quite pleased with the result, but the trade-off was more textures being loaded. Fortunately, Buriram Airport is rather sparse.- Martin

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Hi Ha shakaThanks for the suggestions, I'll give it try when I get out of hospital next weekNice web siteRegardsDave

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Hi DaveSorry I didn't pick up on this earlier, but your problem with the fuel tank sign was probably caused by DXTBmp, which I notice you used to make the texture. Until recently, there was a fault in the DXTBmp code that caused DXT1 textures containing bright red colours, like your Total sign, to have 'smeared' mips. After some testing and discussion with Martin Wright, that bug has now been fixed and the latest version of DXTBmp, available from Martin's web site, no longer has this problem.The bug only affected textures containing bright red colours, and was specific to DXTBmp - it did not occur with imagetool.exe. Now that the bug has been fixed, DXTBmp creates mips as sharp as can be obtained when using the default mipping routines from DXT's (but note that Martin has also explained that the default routines always automatically introduce some smoothing into mips because they sample a 4x4 pixel block when calculating the colours for each pixel of the reduced mip - and this applies to imagetool.exe just as much as DXTBmp).CheersGerrish

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Hi GerrishIt's good to here from you, I hope all is well. I always value your help.I have been amazed at the support the forum has offered on this issue of Mip's, you included from past threads and I have to confess that I haven't attempted to look at this, I'm due for a spell in hospital next week(Not serious), but when they let me out for the weekend I'll certainly download Martin's update for his Excellent Programme. I use his Viewer, as it views all textures, its always good to keep tabs on all Dxt's, even your own.Mip's are something I need to look into in detail with regard to my own textures and the isuue of frame rates. The 'Total' text is a wrapped image in 'FSDS', and a 'total' waste of texture memory(Pun un intended) sorry for swaring :-lol Had you noticed, I'm struggling with vectors still, Arno has persuaded me to use the a/ai s/w in the Texpoly()Poly(), bless him, he never relents with me. His advice seems spot on,and it has produced results;) I recently got access to the airfield at Welshpool, 12mths on and spoke to the owner, he was very helpful, although I don't think he realises the advances Fs has made over the years. His nice looking seceretary, seemed too, she was very aware of VFGM Scenery,(apparently manchester Shipping canel has vanished, I'm sure they would be upset if they knew). Its good to speak to him so I can feed back on my work, which I intend to:-) Thanks againRegardsDave

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