Sign in to follow this  
Guest laurentC

ROTW PA-28 v230.... Does it pull to the right?

Recommended Posts

I've noticed what I suspect is engine torque pulling this great PA-28 to the right constantly. I'm wondering if I've not set something correctly, b/c it seems like there is too much right tendancy, even when the engine is not at full power. I am learning to (really) fly in a PA-28, and I would love to increase the realism a bit more since I expect engine torque on takeoff, but not in cruise.-DK----David KohlFly! II v2.5.240Dell 8200 P4/1.8G, 1024MB RAM, Nvidia GF4 Ti4600 v52.16, WinXP Home Edition SP1.CH Pro Pedals and Yoke USB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Help AVSIM continue to serve you!
Please donate today!

Same here. Perhaps ROTW can give an answer.chris_CA

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi there,You may want to check for settings in the propeller and/or the engine files where there are two tags for the torque effect plus two for the P and Q factor as far as I remember.Tweaking those figures you may have a more acceptable effect that fits your intent.Cheers,If you want more details let me know because I haven't got my files right now ...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi David,if you manage to make the PA-28 more realistic (see Laurent's suggestions) it would be great to share your improvements with us, you are somehow a reference for knowing the real thing.Thank you very much in advanceGeorg (EDDW)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes - Would love more details. If you explain the concept and which files, I can work on a tweak (it may take me a while, as I'm in front of my PC much less than I used to due to difficult work schedule and real-life flying). If you want to give it a shot, here's the essence. When the engine is running at full throttle, there should be a right tendancey, which requires left rudder to compensate. This will occur on takeoff and during climb-out. Once the RPM's dip into the green, that tendency should reduce, and by 2400-2500 RPM's, the plane should more or less fly level without rudder input.In really slow flight, the controls should get mushy, meaning that responsiveness to controls is weak. One will need lots of rudder or aileron to keep the plane level. That's probably more difficult to model b/c the interaction with wind is much more pronouced at slow speeds. From a Fly!2 perspective, I'd work on the right tendancy during high power settings - get just a bit of left-rudder need during takeoff and climb-out, and then settle it back to level wings thereafter. If you can model that, you'll have a pretty accurate PA-28.-DKPS: On another topic, how many flap settings are there in the v230 model? In real life on my plane, there are three settings (clean plus three additional settings to approx 42-degrees, if my memory serves me on the number). I think I noticed only two notches of flaps on latest PA-28. I'll check that next time I fly the ROTW plane, but I seem to recall not being able to pull the final flap on landing yesterday night.----David KohlFly! II v2.5.240Dell 8200 P4/1.8G, 1024MB RAM, Nvidia GF4 Ti4600 v52.16, WinXP Home Edition SP1.CH Pro Pedals and Yoke USB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hopeful your flaps are up with the right way my frind.Remember your only learning how you do it so take it easy and no aerobotics in it or else.Ivor

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all, Ok, let me collect data and prepare some worlds about it ...laurent (rotw)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

David, I agreed about the right propeller effect: it is a little bit strong.But I don't understand about the flaps: there 3 flaps levels (4 with no flaps position ) on the ROTW'sPa28.:-hmmmRemember: the PA28 Warrior was our first aircraft. May be, one day, we'll create a new model (TJ has a project to improve the inside views). But I don't know when because we are preparing several "small" things...;-)Ren

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all,In the PA28.xxx.PRP file there are 3 tags that you can tweak as leisure : the first 2 are classics ones but the last one is the tricky one. -- Thrust Factor -- 0.359 -- Torque Factor -- 0.4395 0.05I think you must start with the third one and experiment it before the first two.CheersLaurent (rotw)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Must be my mistake on the flaps. I'll try again when I fly the v230 next time. On the P-Factor, torque, etc., I'll give it a shot to play with the numbers, but it may take me a week or two. I don't get to enjoy my PC much these days.-DK----David KohlFly! II v2.5.240Dell 8200 P4/1.8G, 1024MB RAM, Nvidia GF4 Ti4600 v52.16, WinXP Home Edition SP1.CH Pro Pedals and Yoke USB.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>If you want to give it a shot, here's the essence. When the>engine is running at full throttle, there should be a right>tendancey, which requires left rudder to compensate. This will>occur on takeoff and during climb-out. Once the RPM's dip into>the green, that tendency should reduce, and by 2400-2500>RPM's, the plane should more or less fly level without rudder>input.>All the PA-28 single engine planes that I've flown............. have a "left" drift tendency requiring "right" rudder. Prop turns counter-clockwise when viewed from the front.L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

G'day Larry,< Prop turns counter-clockwise when viewed from the front.>Don't ever attempt to change a PA-28 prop. :-)Cheers,Roger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hey Larry!Maybe you were flying the English or Australian PA-28 :( In which side of the cockpit you were sitting?Just kidding.:-hah

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>G'day Larry,>>< Prop turns counter-clockwise when viewed from the front.>>>Don't ever attempt to change a PA-28 prop. :-)>>>Cheers,>>RogerSeriously..........If the prop is viewed from the "front" of the plane; as in standing in front......... it's rotation is counter-clockwise.Between P-factor, torque, & slip-stream; the PA-28 Warrior, Archer, or Arrow will pull to the left during the takeoff roll & climbout. Which requires right rudder to compensate.Then there are geared Rotax's, English aircraft, & others that don't come to mind; where the prop turns the "wrong way" :), and you use left foot.I have a 180 HP Lycoming (Archer, Cessna 172) & Hartzell constant speed prop........ which I actually did install.... :)This pic is old, since the engine now has all the baffles, hoses, & wires connected; but you can at least see the pitch of the prop. P.S.... the fixed pitch props turn the same way..L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

G'day Larry,>Seriously..........Hmmm. Staight through to the keeper. :-)Sorry Larry I was being far too subtle.>If the prop is viewed from the "front" of the plane; as in>standing in front......... it's rotation is>counter-clockwise.The propeller on a Cherokee rotates CLOCKWISE (period). Propeller rotation is stated as experienced from the pilots seat, just as are the port and starboard engines/wings etc. The reason it is important is that the fixed pitch prop is fitted with blades at the ten past eight position with *1 cylinder at TDC but if you use your "front" view you will end up fitting the prop at the ten to four position. >Between P-factor, torque, & slip-stream; the PA-28 Warrior,>Archer, or Arrow will pull to the left during the takeoff roll>& climbout. Which requires right rudder to compensate. One may expect all this to occur but;David posted that he wanted to the Cherokee in Fly! II behave like the one he is learning to fly on, not like the aircraft you have flown.Makes a mockery of all the BS you see posted on the forums about how real the flight modelling is of aircraft in the sims. We are all aware of the Monday morning lemon when it comes to cars. Why should aircraft be immune to this. >This pic is old, since the engine now has all the baffles,>hoses, & wires connected; but you can at least see the pitch>of the prop. P.S.... the fixed pitch props turn the same>way..Yep sure do: CLOCKWISE :-)Nice pic Larry got a more recent one.CheersRoger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>>The propeller on a Cherokee rotates CLOCKWISE (period).>Propeller rotation is stated as experienced from the pilots>seat, just as are the port and starboard engines/wings etc. And it's always stated.............. such as from the rear of aircraft. But............... if you're going to hand prop, pull the blades through on a radial engine; or just hand flipping the prop of an R/C engine; then you better be thinking "counter-clockwise" in the majority of cases. At least I did say........... from the front. > One may expect all this to occur but;>>David posted that he wanted to the Cherokee in Fly! II behave>like the one he is learning to fly on, not like the aircraft>you have flown.Are there ANY single engine Piper Cherokee's that pull to the right from torque, slip-stream, and P-factor? If so, has the engine been replaced with something else; as well the the right canted engine mounts?>Makes a mockery of all the BS you see posted on the forums>about how real the flight modelling is of aircraft in the>sims. We are all aware of the Monday morning lemon when it>comes to cars. Why should aircraft be immune to this.Over at the MSFS forum, we already know that some of the best single engine aircraft ever produced for ANY flight simulation are from RealAir simulations (Rob Young). I think he was around this forum once... :D>Nice pic Larry got a more recent one.>On the other CPU ------- I'll get someAnd back to seriousness again.... :)If there are PA28's that really pull to the right, I'd like to know. I lost my hard-drive a few months ago, and no longer have FLYII installed. Lost all those good looking So-Cal pics too! I had this Warrior also, but don't remember it pulling to the right. But it's been far too long to really remember.L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

G'day Larry,>At least I did say........... from the front.The main purpose for my post!>Are there ANY single engine Piper Cherokee's that pull to the>rightYes: N3024ZI must accept Davids statement. After all he is sitting in the seat flying the aircraft Why? Don't know. Something may be not quite straight with the engine or airframe or rigging or loading>Over at the MSFS forum, we already know that some of the best>single engine aircraft ever produced for ANY flight simulation>are from RealAir simulations (Rob Young). I think he was>around this forum once... Hhmmm! We..! Official spokesperson for the MSFS forum. Self appointed I assume?? :-)What has this got to do with N3024Z pulling to the right? Larry this is pretty low, trying to start a sim v sim argument.Fortunately I know you from way back so you are out of luck. :-lolI would like to see some more pics of your homebuilt. Much better than arguing about sims. :-)Cheers,Roger @YSSY

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>I must accept Davids statement. After all he is sitting in the>seat flying the aircraft>> Why? Don't know. Something may be not quite straight with>the engine or airframe or rigging or loading>Since David appears to be a student pilot, I'm more inclined to think it's just an error on his part. Looking at the planes registry, it's a 1979 PA-28-161 which I'm quite familier with ..... year wise. If something was that misrigged, it sure shouldn't be flying. But I highly doubt misrigging has anything to do with it.So yes ----- the prop turns clockwise from the rear, and that's what my Lycoming manual says! :) And...................the plane had better be drifting to the left when the prop is rotating to the right.........from the "rear"; and the same with simulated ones! Let's not confuse those who are trying to get a grip on what's suppose to happen ----- flight wise.And BTW--- no "sim argument". Just going from your paragraph regarding sims & their flight dynamics. Although I didn't totally understand the "meaning"..L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

G'day Larry,>Since David appears to be a student pilot, I'm more inclined>to think it's just an error on his part.>Possible; But I have to give even a student pilot credit for knowing his left from his right. >So yes ----- the prop turns clockwise from the rear, and>that's what my Lycoming manual says! :)Checking up on me! :-lol Larry my reference to flight dynamics and sims is simply that it is overated hype. A "fudge" is the actual word used by one developer to describe flight dynamics. Obviously payware developers have a vested interest in declaring that their aircraft has true to life flight dynamics but many on the forum take it all far too seriously. Flight dynamics; a contradiction of terms in a static sim?This thread has had a good run and gone about as far as I'm willing to go. We will just have to agree to disagree re N3024Z pulling to the right.Over and outCheers,Roger @YSSY

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>Hey Larry!>Maybe you were flying the English or Australian PA-28 :( >In which side of the cockpit you were sitting?>Just kidding.:-hah Just as a "well timed" coincidence, I happened to catch a rerun of a "Plane is Born" on the Disovery Wings channel last night. This particular program is produced in the U.K. And wouldn't you know it..................It included a lesson in the PA28 Archer or perhaps Warrior (I don't remember after seeing it three or four times---- but didn't pay attention)Anyway.............. since it was lesson #1, they specifically discussed the left pull tendency & required right rudder during the takeoff roll & once the wheels leave the ground. Of course this was now an "English" registered PA-28.... :D P.S. ---- for anyone wondering what this left pull is like, even for a Warrior or Cessna 172; it's not just a "whimpy" little bit of directional drift in one direction, or wandering from side to side like some sims may indicate. It's very pronounced, & you'll be pushing against this "force" during the takeoff roll & climb. I always compare it to steering against a gutter or water skiing on the edge of a boats wake. I also know first hand what happens if the airplane's engine goes to idle just before rotation. Because of the right rudder pressure require to keep the plane on the centerline, the plane will make a quick "beeline" to the right side runway lights until corrected. This was a 172 with 180HP.Of course----------- this is with a prop turning "clockwise" viewed from behind the engine, or counter clockwise as viewed from the front! :)No use letting this thread go to waste........... as it's "real" information---- that appears to have some "flawed" :) disagreement & this forum isn't exactly busting at it's seams..L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

>I can't believe I'm typing this... :-lol but I have to agree>with Larry; the Archer should pull to the left so you need to>compensate with rudder with the right pedal.>Great! I thought I was on one of those opposite planets.... on the other side of the sun, or something.. :-roll But figuring that I soloed in the Warrier, finished my PPL in the Archer, and a complex endorsment in the Arrow --------- that somehow I know how a real PA-28 Piper product acts during it's travel down the runway & climb. If we want to program a simulator to be as real as possible............... then it's not "agreeing to disagree". Facts only!Also flown the Seminole & Seneca, but they go "straight"... :)L.Adamson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Larry,I've flown over 200 hours on a Piper PA-24 Comanche 250 and also about 40 or 50 on a Cessna 210 Centurion II and trust me, both needed right pedal to compensate for torque/p-factor and everything else that you can think of... ;-)Take care,http://www.avsim.com/hangar/fly/dfdg/banneraa.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi all,Don't know if this can help ... or not (!), but the propeller spin direction can easily be changed in the ENG file : just change a -1 in 1 and every one can have a plane that pull to the right or to the left according his preffered side ...I can't remeber if there are some figures in the wings to compensate this side behaviour but trial and error can't hurt anyway !Cheers,Laurent (rotw)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this