I have been trying some flights from KSEA to KPDX, using RWY 28 L or 28 R ILS.I note that when I fly the flight using FS 2002 ATC I am always given vectors and stepped descents that keep me free of the mountains off to the East of KPDX, and am correctly vectored to intercept the ILS.Trying for a vectored approach to 28 L, for example coming from the North,[without NOTAMS] RC3 always flies me into the mountains, and if I refuse to descend as told to avoid crashing I get yelled at. Could not do this true IFR conditions obviously.When I try the Notams and choose arrival BOONEVILLE, I have to go 60+ miles out of my way for any of the transitions which are from the East, and I got some crazy vectors that made me go past the airport heading West then circle back, and guess what right into the mountains- crash!The Helens STAR says go to Battleground VOR and expect vectors to the final approach - that will send me into the mountains again.I really want to use this program, but the terrain issue is making it impossible for me, and I don;t think I can trust it other places with mountains even with NOTAMS. I doubt real jets do the ILS by overflying the LAKER IAF and doing some very tight turns to get back on to the ILS, and RC3 will not vector me there anyway.So what am I doing wrong? Is there a solution?Another interesting thing is that one time RC3 told me to land to the West, but AI were all landing to the East resulting in some head on collisions on the runway!Greg

Hi Greg,I am one of the RC beta testers and I live and fly out of Denver, belive me I have tested RC on flights from KDEN to KSEA, KSLC, KSFO and KPDX and I don't have a problem with notams keeping me from any terrain problems. Once you select notams you will NOT be yelled at for not taking the vectors. Remember that RC cannot see the terrain, that is why the notam feature is there.If I understand your issue, you are flying from KSEA to KPDX. Using the HELNS TWO arrival with the BTG as your final fix for rnway 28R or 28L you will get a vector of approx 180 until you are turned on a downwind for 28R. Remember that RC instructs you to turn "WHEN ABLE" The correct procedure for this approach would be to go to BTG (Battle Ground), then turn to a heading of 135 until you clear the mountains and then turn to a heading of 110 degrees and then follow the RC vector directions for an intercept of the ILS.Terrain elevations is still a limitation of MSFS, belive me that FSATC does not see the terrain either. The NOTAM feature of RCv3 allows us virtual pilots to take the approach as noted and fly it. Since I fly out of Denver, all of my approaches from the west are NOTAM approaches, so I am not instructed to descend into the mountains. With hundred of hours flying test for RC I have not crashed into the mountains yet (LOL) and I fly the PIC 767.If you want detailed methods that I use post here or you can email me at [email protected] and will be more than happy to go over each detail in the approach. I can also fly that approach if you want me to follow the exact path into Portland.CheersBob JohnsonRC Beta Tester

Bob,I would really appreciate if you could provide the detailed methods you use. Then I can get the hang of it by learning.(Posting here might help others as well.) I think I am missing something crucial, because once I declare NOTAMS, it seems I am missing details of how I get into the airport avoiding the terrain with the STAR and ILS approach plates and connect back to RC3 on the vectors to the runway. I am looking at the Helens 2 approach and the ILS into 28 R, say, and I see the course of 135 to Laker, but not sure where the 110 comes in and when the RC vectors return after declaring NOTAMS.AS well, if you could try the flight from KSEA to KPDX, that would be great with landing ILS to the West ( 28 L or 28R, then I could trace out the proper technique as well. I use a simple flight plan from KSEA via ALDER at 15,000,and then on with Helens 2 arrival.I fly the PSS A 320 series with FMC.I really appreciate your help!Greg

Hi Greg,>I think I >am missing something crucial, because once I declare NOTAMS, >it seems I am missing details of how I get into the airport >avoiding the terrain with the STAR and ILS approach plates >and connect back to RC3 on the vectors to the runway.Whether or not you are flying a STAR, you will be handed over to approach when 40 miles from your destination airport and approach will give you vectors to the runway. At this point you have a number of options:1. Take the vectors as is.2. If you have NOTAMS enabled, take the vectors but adjust heading and/or altitude as necessary to avoid terrain. Of course you can only do this if you can see the terrain, or have some other reliable way of knowing where it is. Using this method, approach will be giving you vectors until you are set up to intercept the localizer/runway heading.3. Request an IAP. Once you do this, approach will no longer give you vectors. You asked for the IAP and you will be expected to fly it yourself. This may be your only option if conditions are such that you cannot see the terrain. (You can also fly an IAP using just NOTAMs, but you will continue to get vectors from approach, which can be kind of annoying.)Once you request an IAP and are flying on your own, you can have approach start giving you vectors again. (You should see an option to request vectors on the RC menu). Once you do this approach will once again take over. However, the vectors you get may not take you directly to the runway. Depending on your position relative to the airport, approach may vector you away from the airport and then back in. I haven't tried this myself, but I'm guessing that if you're roughly on base leg then you'll get vectored directly to intercept the localizer/runway heading.(You also have the option to request a visual approach, but that will probably not apply in this case.)Let's look more specifically at the route you're flying. HELNS is right about 40 miles from KDPX, so that's when you're going to get handed off to approach. By this point you should already have gotten ATIS at KPDX and decided how to handle the approach. You should also have NOTAMs enabled. Here are some possibles way to proceed.1. Visibility is good. You let approach give you vectors. Follow the heading instructions but maintain altitude sufficient to clear the hills until you are clear of them, then descend and continue following vectors. 2. Visibility is poor. You again let approach give you vectors, but since you cannot see the terrain you need some other way to know when you can safely descend. Referring to your IAP charts, you can determine your Minimum Safe Altitude by noting your relative bearing to either the PDX or BTG vor's. Being familiar with KPDX, I can tell you that you should maintain at least 6,000 until you are turned off downwind and onto base. As you head south you will be clearing the mountains and can descend.3. Visibility is poor and company policy prohibits the use of method (2). :) You request the ILS R28 IAP. Following the chart you do the following. At your handoff to approach you should be at 10,000. Head direct to BTG and cross it at 3,500. Crossing BTG track the 135 radial outbound. You should already have the LAKER ndb tuned in. Head directly for LAKER. At LAKER turn heading 99, execute the procedure turn and pick up the ILS. Voila.4. This one is a cheat but it probably works. :) If you approach KPDX from the south the terrain is relatively flat and you can just follow approach vectors. Approaching from the north you could request an IAP, continue flying due south until you have passed KPDX, and then ask approach for vectors.Hope this helps.Sidney Schwartz [KPDX]Horizon Flights--flight plans and scenery for FS2002http://sidneyschwartz.homestead.com/index.html

Greg,I flew it. Look at your Rwy 28R plate. Upper-right corner states the MSA is 6100ft. A few things to talk about...First, I Saved a dat file when I first called Apch. In this flight, I did what the controller told me to do (a nasty habit I happen to believe in :)). IOW, I flew the headings.I stayed at 6100ft all the way until I was clr'd for approach. Through downwind and base, 6100ft. That ensured terrain avoidance. Remember, NOTAMs enabled to it was all "when able" "if feasible" etc...Now, there's a possible problem with this, Larry's helping me check it out. I recall at the time I was clr'd for approach, I was about 20m out, above the glideslope. I've seen this done riding jump going into KATL, where the controller issues an altitude to maintain until a fix while the flight was above the gs. Legal? Yes and no I'm told.If wx conditions are VMC, yes, legal. If wx's IMC, the aircraft must be below the gs prior to the approach clearance. In talking to Larry tonight (he's going to look at this too), he senses something amiss. He feels at 20m out, I should have certainly been below the gs. Wasn't the case. Though I know what I saw, I don't know the trig like Larry would :).Regardless. To answer your question, hold the MSA altitude or your assigned altitude, (whichever is higher), until you're clr'd for approach. You'll not plow into mountains.Legal or not (VMC/IMC), that's what we've got to go with at this point. I'm very interested to see what Larry finds respect to the gs realism and accuracy.

OK Doug, I flew the 28R approach tonight into PDX. I landed with a tailwind in a blinding rainstrom. My reversers got quite a workout.I was turned final about 22 miles out. RC descended me to 5,000 on downwind, and 4,000 feet on final. Using terrain Notams I stayed at the msa/mia of 6,100 feet until the needle was active.PDX ILS 28R has a standard 3 deg. glideslope. That means at 6,100 feet, plus adding in the field elevation, I will intercept the glideslope at about 20.4 miles. I was turned final 22 out, below the glideslope.I also noticed that the highest peak in the vicinity of the turn to final was only sightly above 4,000 feet. So I knew I was afe descending as soon as I saw the needle start to move...FAA 7110.65 par. 5-9-1,b. For a precision approach, at an altitude not above the glideslope/glidepath or below the minimum glideslope intercept altitude specified on the approach procedure chart. RC met the requirements on this one...:-kewlLarry