Direct To and Resume Own Navigation .. Long Leg

[ronzie 21]

Per my local SID from KMSP to KFAR I choose a direct KMSP to VOR FAR to KFAR for high altitude travel. I get the departure vectors and eventually get the resume own nav. At that point I home the FAR VOR CDI and track, about 120nm remaining. RC ATC is unhappy with that claiming I'm off course, so I accept the vector correction and merge with the flightpath shown on my Apollo GPS onto which I've loaded the plan and RC ATC appears happy.The point is, would not RC expect me to fly the direct route to the next waypoint regardless of the original filed path which can not know where departure vectoring will release me to resume my own nav?

[Guest Rudo]

Hi,The same thing happend to me last night (see my last post). My first waypoint is within 30nM, so I don't get vectored around. RC expects me to fly my own SID, so I do. I have filed a plan with a RWY to the east but ATC directs me to a RWY going north. So I take the SID for that RWY taking me east so I end up on my original filed route. RC doesn't become involved until I reach the last waypoint of the SID, which in both cases is the same (ARNEM). Halfway my SID I get the message: 'Sir, do you show yourself on the airway?... Fly heading... Procede direct when able...This is not seposed to happen, right?My point: do you make a flightplan after listening to ATIS and knowing which RWY is 'active'? Or do you request the RWY you prefer? Is it wise not to include any SID/STAR in the plan I load into RC, which leaves me free to take any SID I like, or to get vectored to my first waypoint?questions, questionsRudi

[jd 57]

think of it this way, if you file a dp, you don't know what way the wind is blowing. you might use the same plan a week from today. you won't know what way the wind is blowing then either.now if you file a dp, you are expected to fly it, regardless of which runway is chosen for you, or which one you choose.since you filed the dp, the controller is going to assume you know how to fly it, and he is not going to yell at you, and give you headings to fly so you can fly it.that is why the flex dp button was added.so you have two choices, when you file a dp and you don't know what runway you are going to geta) if the controller gives you a runway that does not work for your dp, then ask for the runway that the dp works for. he'll approve it. but you still have to fly the dp, almost perfectly (less than 2 miles from each checkpoint):( choose the flex dp checkbox. that way, you can fly whatever dp you want, from whatever runway is picked for you. all it cares is that you progress that checkpoint at the end of the dp.you can tell by looking at the advdisp, and by listening for the ding-ding. while you're flying the dp, does the checkpoint information change from one to the next? are you getting credit for the checkpoint by hearing the ding-ding? if not, you're not getting credit, and you're going to be asked by the controller why aren't you on the airway (to whatever the checkpoint is displayed in the advdisp)does that help?jd

[ronzie 21]

This answers posting 2 but how about my original where the FAR VOR is the first checkpoint, when I get resume own nav, I home the CDI and continue then getting the message.So I guess I must merge on the flight path from the Airport to the first wayout checkpoint of the VOR instead of flying directly to it, right?

[Guest Rudo]

>:( choose the flex dp checkbox. that way, you can fly whatever>dp you want, from whatever runway is picked for you. all it>cares is that you progress that checkpoint at the end of the>dp.Hi John,This is my filed DP:EHAM RWY 09ARNEM1N (EH055/EH042/IVLUT/ARNEM)EH055 is my first fix. Now I take off from RWY 36C with PAM2W (EH045/EH081/EH082/PAM)Now: if I check the Flex.Dep button, can I fly the PAM2W and after PAM procede direct to ARNEM - beeing the last WPT of my original DP, without ATC yelling at me? Or does RC ATC expect me to fly the filed DP, starting at EH055? When I fly the PAM2W I don't get credit for passing any waypoints ofcourse!Thanks,Rudi

[Guest lvp0412]

As soon as you depart the airport, you are essentially off course, since the "route" is a straight line from point A to point B. Now, you are south, north, etc. of the course line as soon as you depart the airport. You make the turn toward your first fix, but since you are not in the middle of the airport, you are now parallel to your course (somewhere).When ATC gives you the "resume own navigation", he expects you to join that straight line from the airport to the fix, but you are now flying ?? miles left or right of course to the fix. When you get cleared to "resume own navigation", try asking for "direct to the first fix", and I'll bet he leaves you alone the rest of the flight since the rest is point A to B.LVP (KCVG)

[ronzie 21]

That seems the most sensible requesting direct to first fix from where vectoring ends. Perhaps in V4 that should be applied automaticly following departure vectors but only if the distance from the first fix allows it. Since you do not get vectors under 30nm first leg distance but are expected to navigate the filed departure to that first waypoint under 30 nm from the airport, perhaps a similar threshold can determine (user option in controller panel) if the waypoint is within a certain range where a direct to makes sense and allow a direct-to when you get the resume own nav instruction.It seems the last vector has you heading toward the distant first waypoint and eventually you would merge with the original path, so maybe we need a little more convergence distance or a tighter merge angle on the last vector so when released to resume own nav we don't have to make sharp turns for sudden convergence.There I go with long confusing sentences again but maybe someone gets my drift (pun intended).

[jd 57]

if you are 30 miles away from the "green line" (or whatever color the planner/gps uses for the point to point line), you are not expect to make that turn and get back on the green line.you are supposed to fly direct to the next checkpoint, not back to the line and then to your next checkpoint.jd

[ronzie 21]

OK. I am about 6 miles off the point-to-point when I was released from vectors. I would guess that there would be some delay before I got the course warning, but since the next point was about 120nm away at GS of 420kn when I continued direct, I guess I exceeded the controller's patience in being beyond the 2 kn limit.Without me getting the AIM out, is the deviation off course allowed greater at high altitude where waypoints are farther apart then low altitude enroute? Just curious again.