BraytonCycle

Haha..nothing wrong with windmills. Use to be great fun. Sorry if i was too pushy or had an attitude. Was just frustrated.

The aircraft flies 10kts faster than it should on approach - reason being is PMDG used the unreliable airspeed tables which is Vref + 10 attitudes and thrust settings. For every 5 kts above Vref, lower nose by 1 degree, and thats why we see 0 (Vref + 5 + 10 unreliable airspeed table additive which causes the further 2 degree pitch down) on the PFD instead of 2 degrees (Actual Vref + 5). More simply put, you think you are flying an approach at Vref + 5 but in actual fact, you are flying it at (Vref + 10) + 5. Thats the reason for the lower nose attitude on touchdown (2 - 2.5 deg instead of 4 to 5 deg) and the reason for the float because the a/c is 10kts faster than what you should be on the flare. Anyway, thats my 2 cents worth. Didnt mean to sound arrogant as i put it in the first post. Obviously this site isnt really meant for real world pilots. Thanks all those who tried to help. Happy landings!

Zach..not here to debate with you as I said in my first post so why bother posting unless you like to be popular in which case start your own thread and for your information, you were not trying to help anyway. Already Ryan has said they used the Unreliable airspeed tables for attitudes for the NGX which is already incorrect since its not meant to be used for normal flight at Vref + 5. That Vref+10 is a safety buffer put in to make sure the aircraft will not be too slow on approach. AS CONFIRMED BY RYAN : Anyway, bet guys like you will sit in a real 737NG and tell the pilot the landing attitude is wrong since PMDG737NGX lands with 2 to 2.5 degrees and that the book figures Boeing has means nothing at all. Isnt there any real B737NG pilots in this forum??? Hopefully one day someone will wake up and see just because something looks amazing may not always be correct! Maybe ok for virtual pilots to fly with whatever attitude set on NGX but for some of us, no use flying the NGX if its not even going to be close to the real book figures. (yup..i know someone will say "why fly it then"..so dont bother)

Yeah Zach, dont think will really waste my time with someone who hasnt flown jets for real. Read my first post again unless you are the type that loves to throw in your 2 cents worth without reading the above posts. PS. what was PMDG trying to compromise on by having both their models out by 2 degrees?? If you had any sense of flying, you would know attitude is everything in flying.

Falcon, hope u understand that the FS9 NG is still an NG regardless on which Flight sim it was built for. The numbers in terms of attitudes etc should be exactly the same for both the FS9NG and the NGX if it was built on actual figures from a real 737NG. Why did the FS9 NG have attitudes similar to the Boeing manual figures pilots are provided and are closer to the attitudes some of us pilots fly? You cant tell me PMDG got the FS9NG totally wrong (and Ifly737x) and this one totally right in terms of attitudes.

Gather your team realises those tables are actually meant Vref 30 + 10 and Vref 40 + 10 and not Vref 30 + 5 attitudes then which therefore explains why the attitudes on the NGX is already lower by 1 degree than the real aircraft. Eg. The table shows: Vref 30 + 10 = pitch of 1 degree. If i add my 5 kts to my Vref, the nose has to pitch down by an extra 1 degree now and thats why i see 0 on my pitch attitude indicator for a flaps 30 approach on your NGX. Normally a flaps 40 will show pitch of 0 degrees on the PFD. My major concern though is the landing attitude. Its way too low and am sure your real world pilots in your team will agree. Take the real world figures from the unrealiable airspeed table, if my pitch att is already 1 degree and Vref + 10, I approach at Vref + 5 and therefore increase my pitch by a degree which equals 2 degrees. Therefore approach attitude is 2 degrees. On touchdown as per the books, I normally increase pitch at 20ft above runway by an additional 2 to 2.5 degrees to decrease RoD and therefore would touchdown at around 4 to 5 degrees in calm conditions. Your team used numbers from the unreliable airspeed table which takes into account a wind addition of 10. So on the NGX we approach with 0 degree attitude, and the aircraft pitches up 2 to 2.5 degrees and touches down at 2.5 degrees. Hope i am making sense here. Now if everything was increased by 2 degrees, your pilots am sure cannot disagree with me unless I am flying a NG that wasnt modified or something. Basically, you used Unrealiable airspeed tables to come up with attitudes which are attitudes for Vref + 10 and not Vref + 5.

Thanks Ryan for your prompt reply. I do understand it would be hard to change and that I cannot be verified as a real pilot. Who came up with the attitudes on the PMDG 737NG for FS9? Was this verified by real pilots from the PMDG team also? Am not trying to be smart or anything like that. Just that it actually matches the aircraft I fly and the figures in the B737 manuals my company provided.

Ryan or anyone from PMDG. Is it possible to advise how to change the attitude from approach all the way down to landing by 2 degrees for all flaps setting from the default one you guys have programmed into the 737NGX. That way some of us real world pilots can use the attitude we feel is right and replicates what we see in the real aircraft while others can continue with the default one without any issues. Brought this up because just had a proper go with the NGX and everything works perfectly except the attitudes on finals are 2 degrees off. I know you were going to look into this from some of the previous post but since this might take time, am sure your programmers could throw out some numbers for me to change on .cfg page or something. Sorry to sound arrogant but those of you who disagree with me saying that the attitude PMDG programmed is incorrect, I am not writing this to be told PMDG got it correct etc etc and that I am wrong. Am over that part and didnt write this to debate over the correct attitudes. Just want an answer from PMDG or anyone who knows how to increase approach attitude settings on the PFD by 2 degrees. Thanks

Martin, I do agree with you. Normally if we switch the flight directors off in the real thing with Flaps 30, Vref + 5, as a guide we hold 2 degrees and then make slight adjustments. The attitude on approach is low but what really puts me off the NGX is the touchdown attitude. Hope they can fix the attitude issue.

Hi Ryan, The unrealiable airspeed table is for approach while on the Glideslope ie. approx. 1 degree at 57% N1 etc etc. Thats not really the issue i have. My issue is really the attitude on Flare. Am sure your Type rated pilots (-700/-800) will agree it is just below the 5 degree line and not 2.5degree as you set for the NGX. That is the attitude you hold just prior to touchdown.

Hi Dan, our company uses noise abatement procedure NADP2 so our ops states 2 Eng Thrust reduction 1000' and Eng-out 800'. May be different in your part of the world though or with other airlines. Plus we dont have the luxury of the 10min limitation at full take off thrust like some operators do, only 5minutes so 1000ft seems to work just fine.

In reality, you would arm LNAV on the ground (normally after you receive your airways clearance, but just depends on company SOPs). Currently the one i fly doesnt have the option for VNAV arming on the ground like the 744. We dont select HDG SEL and MCP SPD on the ground. When you select TOGA on the rwy, you should see: N1 | | TOGA The Roll mode should be blank with a white LNAV shown in small indicating LNAV armed. Once airborne, 50ft LNAV should engage (provided you have an active route in the FMC). At thrust reduction height (1000ft), set flaps up speed on the MCP and start retracting flaps when the speed trend shows a positive increase. Once flaps are up and above 3000ft AGL, we then select LVL CHG or VNAV as appropriate. Note though when you select an AP, you have basically cancelled takeoff mode and therefore will default to HDG SEL and MCP SPD if no mode armed on ground. Regarding Engine start levers, there is CUTOFF and IDLE detent. Gather you can call Idle detent ON if you like. Our aircraft has version U10.8 and later. Thrust reduction automatically takes place at 1000ft (as set on Takeoff Ref Page 2/2). There is not need to select N1 manually on the MCP as it is done for you unlike the older version. Hope it helps

Not offended at all mikea. This is not a real pilots forum so was not here to prove anything to anyone. I was just frustrated that after waiting for so long, PMDG comes out the new 737 which does not land like the real thing. Thats all. I got ifly737x and FS9 737 and actually use those two more than this one which is a bit of a disappointment since I did really like PMDG 747/737NG. One more thing though that you wrote regarding the rated pilots who helped make it program. You cant tell me that the other rated pilots you were talking about decided Boeing was wrong about what they had in their manuals and came up with own landing attitudes? Boeing clearly states the attitudes in their manuals, so real pilot or virtual pilot, it doesnt matter what anyone of us say. Its what boeing says since they built the aircraft. This isnt the first time PMDG got it wrong. Their 747X for eg had mistakes which I had pointed out to them which they acknowledged.

Tony, this is just a video of you landing on FSX! Of course you will get a good landing holdin 2-2.5degrees because PMDG set the numbers like that. This does not mean it replicates the real aircraft. Plus the second video, were you looking at the FPV or the pitch attitude? Also note the FO calling "Tail" which meant he would had to lower the nose to drive the aircraft in so not to float as some of you may have noticed. Not a smooth landing which is better than a float half way down the runway and greasing it! Am a real world pilot on the NG and know for sure the top of the white box (airplane nose) on the PFD is held just on the 5 degree line on touchdown just as the Boeing designed it to in their books. No use posting videos of PMDG landings since thats PMDGs programmed numbers. Those of you looking at the second video, that -3 degrees that pilot was holding is correct since in the HUD system, we fly the FPV (Flight Path Vector) which shows flight path angle relative to the horizon. On an ILS its basically the glideslope which is -3 degrees. Whats shown on the Attitude indicator is different, around +1 to +2 degrees for flaps 30 as this is the aircrafts nose relative to the horizon. Without using HUD, select "FPV" on your EFIS panel when carrying out an ILS or even level flight and see what the FPV holds compared to the Attitude indicator. Your AI should indicate +1 to 2 degrees and FPV around -3 degrees. Anyway, hope PMDG could just provide numbers which those who want to adjust can do so so as to replicate the real aircraft and those who are happy with what they now can carry on flying without any changes.

Is your settings on FSX set to "US metric systems"? If not, try that and make sure your Display Control Panel is "NORMAL".

mmm...kind of misleading people here. I fly the -700/-800 and the touchdown techniques are the same - flare (increasing pitch by 2-3 degrees) and touchdown! Tony, since you are flying the real thing as well, refer to section 6 of your FCTM v 10, July 2011, pages 6.17 to 6.19 and tell us what Boeing says about the Pitch attitude on touchdown that is at Vref. If yours says anything other than aprox. 5, i think we are flying totally different NGs! Frank, have a good look at the pic. We are not talking about approach attitudes (well, not just yet!). Talking about attitude on touchdown. That is 20ft, thrust levers back to idle and waiting for the main gear to touch the runway. That aircraft is on final approach with the threshold some distance away. We debating over whether it should be 2.5 degrees as PMDG as set it or what boeing and most real pilots do which is approx 5 degrees (just below the 5 degree line). Hoping PMDG will check out the proper boeing manuals and come out with a fix. Thats why i am fussing about it.

Haha, thanks Daniel but should do just fine. What manual are you guys refering to? Is it the Boeing manual meant for real pilots or the Boeing manuals for PMDG? Anyway, the attitude is approx. 5 degrees as i have said so many times before. The lastest Boeing Flight Crew Training Manual July 2011, Section 6 - Landing. pages 6.17 to pages 6.19, shows clearly the landing attitudes for the 737-800 with and without SFP options and all tables indicate attitude just above 4 degrees on landing. I didnt start this thread to be told I am wrong since i fly the aircraft for real. Just wanted to get a fix for this so that it feels like the real aircraft. Will set out doing my own tweaking thanks to some info already provided so will see how it goes. Trust me, anything like 2 to 2.5 degrees and you wouldnt want to show your face to your passengers! (i.e. at Vref +5 landing Flaps 30)

Hi Peter, are you saying that once my flaps are out, its not in approach idle? Besides, I would have thought even with approach idle or even flight idle selected by the EECs, the slight increase in idle thrust shouldnt change the attitude by 2 degrees. Normally for every 5kts above Vref+5, Boeing recommends reducing attitude by 1 degree for touchdown. That means with the attitude 737NGX is set at, it is doing close to 10kts faster than what it should be. Maybe abit too much lift at G550 said before. The real -800 does have an attitude of approx 4 degrees on landing and it is in approach idle which is above flight idle so i think PMDG did miss out on something when programming the attitudes. Got a fight in 2 days anyway. Will check to see if my brain is playing tricks on me or just a mistake on PMDGs behalf

I have the lastest issue: FCTM Revision 10 dated July 29, 2011 but doubt this should make any difference. I do fly the real aircraft, the -700/-800. the attitude we land at is approx. 4 degrees like i stated a few times. Anyone with the FS9 737NG or even Ifly 737x? Those attitudes seems a bit more realistic. Too much lift on the NGX. Just does not land like the real aircraft. Seems like even the ILS attitude (3 degree glidepath) shown on the PFD is lower than in real. Maybe compensating for excess lift????

Thanks Martin. Will give it a go and see what happens. Appreciate your help.

Yeah, we add half the headwind and all the gusts not to exceed Vref+20. On the flare the headwind component is normally bled off and the gust correction is held till touchdown. But even if not taking any wind into account, that is touchdown at Vref, the attitude does seem way too low on the PMDG738. Really hard to use your peripherals for landing while using a computer compared to the real aircraft so thought at least the correct pitch attitude on the PFD would have helped abit.

Tony..are you a real world pilot? Not too sure what you meant by "you have to factor in wind, turbulence and have to vary the pitch and thrust accordingly" since at 20ft. thrust levers are brought to idle so thrust does not have anything to do with pitch attitude on landing. Lets say Nil wind, nil turbulence, 60t, Flaps 30. You cant tell me you land with 2-2.5degrees in the real aircraft and called it a smooth landing. The-800, at the above weights and conditions, if you have a glance at the PFD pitch indicator while in flare and holding off, have always held it at 4 degrees which seems to work really well. A one degree change to hold off at 2 degrees or even 2.5 degrees really will not decrease the RoD. Its more like driving the aircraft into the runway quite hard. I gather I cant tweak any files to improve what is shown on the PFD then.

So Fred and Tony, whats the attitude u hold on flare...that is whats shown on the PFD? Normally on the aircraft its just below the 5 degree mark...we call it 4 degrees. The PMDG shows 2 - 2.5 degrees.

This is incorrect. Have never experienced a hard landing during autolands in the real aircraft i fly. At typical landing weights, Flap 30, and Vref+5, we normally see close to the 5 degree pitch shown on the PFD during the landing, and we reduce this by 1 degree for each 5kts above this speed. However in the PMDG737NGX, it seems to be 2 to 2.5 degrees. Basically at 20ft above the runway, increase pitch attitude by approximately 2 - 3 degrees as per the ACTUAL FCTM. Like i said before, at flaps 30, my attitude is already at 2 degrees so when i flare i should be looking at 4 - 5 degrees on touchdown. So gather no one has any ideas how the attitudes can be changed to match the real aircraft? Even the approach attitude on the PFD on an ILS is incorrect. If anyone has the FS9 737NG, that one actually showed attitudes similar to the real aircraft, even on touchdown.

Anyone knows how to correct the touchdown attitude on the NGX?? Even on Autoland have noticed it holds about 2 to 2.5 degrees on flare. In reality this would be a nice hard landing! With flaps 30, we hold approx 2 degrees on approach so obviously if i hold that on touchdown, there had been no flare. Why cant it be similar to the FS9 737NG which had basically the correct attitude shown on the PFD. The correct attitude should be around 5 degrees (on the PFD). Can this be fixed??