Basic Approach Plates Question & the 757

[Guest]

I often go to the EchoFlight website for my approach plates. The problem is that no matter where I look for certain plates, they don't seem to exist anywhere. Let's take Las Vegas for example (LAS). It seems that no matter where I look for approach plates for RNWY 07L or R, it doesn't seem to exist anywhere. Is this because ther ARE no plates for 07? Hard to believe. If this is true, since it is an ILS runway, am I supposed to use it's reciprocal for localizer info & just ignore all glideslope info?. Also, I see a plate labeled "VOR/DME A." What does this correspond to? What does the letter A mean. The runway plate seems to be for RNWY 01 possibly (either L or R).Next, I often see plates that say GPS 19. Does this mean that I just type in the 5 letter fix in my 757 FMC & then try to track it based on the radial info the plate shows?One other example of missing runways seems to be at Sacramento (KSAC). It seems the only charts I can find anywhere on the internet is for runway 02 - but there are three different runways (& 6 plates needed of course). These consistently missing runways on the websites makes me think that I am missing some knowledge that pilots know of - like what they would do in these scenarios. I am a bit confused for now. If anyone can answer these questions, I would be greatly appreciative.Thank you all,Chris Catalano

[michal 44]

Chris,If you can't find maybe it doesn't exist. In my opinion there are no ILS procedures for rwy 7 in KLAS. No, you can't "make up" your own approach. If the plate is not there - you can't fly it.Michael J.

[AlaskanFlyboy 7]

Try the site at http://www.clearanceunlimited.com/. It makes it easier for finding Apps, STARs, and DPs. Though remember, not all runways have an ILS. Some may require a visual approach and you'll have use the VASI lights to help you down, unless you've got a "feel" for predicting glide slopes.John S. MorganReal World: KSFF, Cessna 152 994JP, Student 16+ hours.Virtual: Fly!II, KPHX, AWVA, PMDG Boeing 757-200.

[Guest mmcevilley]

>I often go to the EchoFlight website for my approach plates. >The problem is that no matter where I look for certain >plates, they don't seem to exist anywhere. >Let's take Las Vegas for example (LAS). It seems that no >matter where I look for approach plates for RNWY 07L or R, >it doesn't seem to exist anywhere. Is this because ther ARE >no plates for 07? Hard to believe. If this is true, since it >is an ILS runway, am I supposed to use it's reciprocal for >localizer info & just ignore all glideslope info?. Chris,ILS approach plates exist *only if* the runway is configured with the necessary electronics to transmit azimuth (glideslope) and deviation (localizer) information. Keep in mind that this means for a single runway to have published ILS approaches for both runway ends, there must be two sets of equipment installed. (EDIT: someone check me on this - the Localizer information should be usable in both directions meaning that one such localizer xmitter should suffice - may not need a separate transmitter - centerline for the runway is the same; azimuth for each approach is not)In the case of LAS, runways 25L and 25R have such - but - runways 7L and 7R do not. That is why you cannot find the approach plates.As for creating your own approach plate - yes you can do it. But, you would first have to modify the appropriate FLY databases to have an ILS simulated where one currently does not exist. But - if you want to keep it real (i.e., keep true to the real world), you have to fly either the 25L/R ILS approaches or the VOR/DME 1R.To sum up: having an ILS published for one end of the runway does not mean that the other end also has a published ILS approach.Examples that quickly come to mind: IAD ILS 12 - there is no ILS 30; SAN ILS 09 - there is no ILS 27 (there is a LOC 27 however).Hope this helps.-michael

[Guest]

As for creating your own approach plate - Who would want to do that!? I guess I must have been unclear - I NEVER would want to "create" a fake one. I want it to be as in real life. I guess what I was asking is what do pilots do when there are no charts for a particular RWY. Actually, someone yesterday gave me an answer about circle approaches. I guess I can use one of the published plates from another runway - then descend to circle minima, & then visually find the REAL runway that I need & do a circle approach. Yes?The problem I am running into is that C4TO keeps telling me to land at runways that don't have published plates (& C4TO treats such runways as ILS runways when indeed it is not - & C4TO does offer guidance on circle o land approaches). However, is my philosophy above correct? If there are no published plates for a RWY, would a real pilot use a plate from another RWY & then use a circle to land approach?Thanks for all the really interesting reading friends.Sincerely,Chris

[michal 44]

>from another RWY & then use a circle to land approach? If the approach procedure does mention circle (the minima are then higher) - then yes.Michael J.

[Guest mmcevilley]

>I guess what I was asking is what >do pilots do when there are no charts for a particular RWY. >Actually, someone yesterday gave me an answer about circle >approaches. I guess I can use one of the published plates >from another runway - then descend to circle minima, & then >visually find the REAL runway that I need & do a circle >approach. Yes? Chris, A few points: 1. A pilot is only going to fly an approach for which clearance has been obtained. ATC is not going to clear you for anything that has not been published. Therefore, if there are no "circle to land" appoaches published for a particular runway then that option is just not available.2. In the case of the circle to land, the ceiling might be below the minimums defined by the approach and you would be unable to (legally) fly it! :-)3. If weather conditions dictate that an instrument approach must be flown and then the pilot determines that the only available approaches exceed limitations (aircrew/aircraft), such as maximum xwind component, then the pilot has no choice but to divert to another airport where conditions are more favorable.For you particular sim case: Is there a way to request a different runway from C4TO?-michael

[Guest DNelson]

Nowhere in this thread have visual approaches been mentioned. At a desert airport like KLAS, visual approaches are used probably 99% of the time. As I recall C4TO does not accomodate visual approaches, which is a significant shortcoming.For a visual approach you'll be asked to report either the airport or a preceding aircraft in sight. ("United 123, you're following a Delta 737 at your 2 o'clock, 5 miles, descending through 10,000, report him in sight") As soon as you report the airport or the other plane in sight, you'll be cleared for a visual approach.A visual approach is just that - all maneuvering and navigation is done visually. No ILS is needed, although if it's a straight-in approach many pilots will tune in the ILS (if one exists for the landing runway) for glideslope information and better situational awareness.Dan

[michal 44]

Good point about visual approaches. There are also so called "published" visual approaches which is yet another beast. But I agree that it makes no sense at all to fly some weird circle approaches (I wonder how often in real world a 757 flies such approach at KLAS ??) only because of serious limitations of the ATC. :-hmmm Michael J.

[Guest]

There is no way to request a different runway from C4TO. C4TO does, however, permit you to request a VFR approach. In this case, you are vectored to the appropriate altitude and final approach position. Once you have the airport in sight, you report, etc., etc.--works like a charm. (-:Regardless, when your profile is IFR, C4TO insists on sending you to runways sans ILS. This is incredibly annoying and I've (almost) stopped using it because of this problem. :-grrUnfortunately, the author of C4TO appears to have vanished without a trace and did not provide the Fly!Scripts source code. :-(Oh well, at least there's VATSIM and IVAO... ;-)Cheers, Tony

[michal 44]

>Unfortunately, the author of C4TO appears to have vanished >without a trace Marc does show up once in a while on those competing forums .. ;-)Michael J.

[Guest]

Dear Tony:You probably know this already - but in such cases where you really want a particular runway to land on with C4To, you can always change the wind heading to the RWY heading - then the controller for C4To will give you that particular RWY. You probably knew this already.Chris

[Guest]

> Unfortunately, the author of C4TO appears to have vanished without a trace and did not provide the Fly!Scripts source code. I wonder if the source code could be made available now if we know how to contact Marc.Chris

[Guest]

Really interesting ? for you Tony:I never tried a visual approach w/CtTo. I just read the readme again. It says:- Prior to contacting Approach Control (if you've already been given the frequency change - it's too late), you may activate visual approach mode by pressing ALT+SPACEBAR. If you change your mind, hit ALT+SPACEBAR again (it's a toggle).Here's the ?:I have been very frustrated w/C4To asking me to land ILS on RWYs that have none - now: If I can request a visual approach, how do you know ahead of time if you will even NEED to? Maybe C4To will get it right & send me to an ILS equipped runway. It seems to me from reading the readme that you have to request visual BEFORE you even GET the approach frequency. Are you able to ask for a visual approach AFTER you get the (wrong!) runway assignment? If not, it seems like we are playing Russian roulette by hoping that we will get an ILS runway. ILS runways are MY first preference, so I would like to only use the visual option if I NEED to (ie - C4To makes a mistake by sending me to a non-ILS runway when my profile is IFR)Also - >In this case, you are vectored to the appropriate altitude and final approach position. Once you have the airport in sight, you report, etc., etc.--works like a charm. Where exactly will C4To vector you to with a visual approach - Does it bring you to the final approach fix itself, or do you still have to fly downwind, base, final, etc.?Thanks Buddy :-)Chris