Hi Walter and the rest.IMHO this thread is a shining example of how discussions ought to be held, especially in written form with a common language that to some of the participants is not their first language."So the customer will be beta-tester. Maybe it is my own fault, because if I were intelligent, I would not buy really NEW software and would wait two or 3 months before purchase!On the other hand - if everybody would be doing this who WOULD buy and test new software??? Maybe the first customers should get software for half the price because they will inevitably become beta-testers or their credit card should only be charged as soon as all the bugs have been removed!?"I suppose there are at least two types of people here (prepare for generalisation). The first kind expects and demands perfection from the start. The other kind have realised that it

Hi Joe,I cant really comment as to the actual process that brought PMDG to the point of requiring a patch. I simply dont have any idea of the testers as individuals, the testing approaches used or any other information at all on the testing process that was carried out. Because of that the how and why it happened isnt my place and would be grossly unfair to PMDG, the testers, yourself and the entire forum group for me to speculate.I agree with you entirely about it being sad that all those bugs got through the net. The good good news for customers and everyone here is that PMDG werent happy that the bug list is so high. Robert has clearly and openly stated as such.What would I do now if I was Robert, 1) make the patch as bulletproof as I could 2) do a postmortem on what went wrong. Checking Roberts posts confirm that he is doing just that, another reason I have continued faith in PMDG.Im not sat here in rose coloured spectacles, I am looking objectively, it is sad that the bugs got through. So do I agree with you. Yes absolutely its a problem.Do glaring bugs get through the test process, yes they can without a tester being at fault. (there is a fault yes, not necessarily the poor testing guy though) I have had glaring mistakes in my work and not seen it until pointed out by a tester, because Im too close to the product.I was asked by a small french publisher to review their testing process. What I did was deliberately do a rebuild of a product that already worked (and had shipped the year before) and introduce some bugs into it, minor, major, and way out there obvious.Believe it or not 2 way out there obvious bugs slipped the net of this test crew I was evaluating. What had happened is this. Testers have brains like the rest of us. The brain likes to create pattern and order. When you test a product you subconsciously form a path through the product, ie a way of approaching it and using it that within the constraints of the software is unique to you. The more time spent with the product the more the tester falls into the trap of linearity in their approach, not by deliberate design but by the brains response to repetitive testing. They subconsciously start doing things the same way even when trying to be either random or working rigidly to a list this still comes through. Thats why products need more than one tester as everyone is different so they choose their own path. Its actually quite easy to miss a bug due to pathing and its called "bug blindness".Whether that happened in this case I plain dont know and Im not going to do anyone injustice by speculating. The reason I mention it is that it is actually as easy to miss an "obvious" bug as a "covert bug" so I dont draw any inferences or conclusions from that. Conclusions are for Robert and his team. For us as consumers Im heartened that the team feel that things went wrong,that means they are in sync with their userbase, saddened it did and reassured in that they are working hard on a patch and that they are going to review the process.As Ive said, I miss my own bugs, so dont see any blame just circumstances :). Being a pedantic sort of person when it comes to the quality of my work I actually push my publishers to bring in a new rotation of beta testers every so often to supplement the main core to help circumvent onset of bug blindness.I cant really say anymore than that, but I hope at least I answered your question as best as I am able.Andrew

Hi Torben, thank you for the kind comments its appreciated. You have my respect too.Andrew

>Oh, and about complicated anti-piracy methods. If there were>no pirates there wouldn

>In reference to describing that with your best attempts, your>games did on occasion release with bugs. In two cited>examples the instances were "two years later" and "one year>later" with one of the instances having a "1 in 25 million>chance" of occurance. Yes, bugs do slip by, they have and>they always will...but 70+ bugs within weeks of release that>went unnoticed by beta testers?!? Which brings me to my>point...>I discovered the fire bottle discharge / fuel imbalance / FMC>crossing restriction bugs on my maiden flight. And not one of>the beta testers found these? I guess I just can't seem to>wrap my arms around that one. You mean to tell me that not>one beta tester used the FMC extensively enough on a flight>where a crossing restriction above 10K was entered? Hard to>believe. Makes one wonder if the FMC was even tested, right? >What about the insufficient fuel message? I got that also on>my first maiden flight. The only way that I can imagine beta>testers did not get this FMC message is that they were always>thousands of pounds overloaded on fuel for the flight - like>flying on full tanks or something. Or, just maybe none of>them used the FMC...I don't know.(Unfortunately) you are absolutely right here. I discovered at least 3 bugs on my maiden flight - and I certainly did NOT look for bugs especially. I can understand that one tester maybe did not find one of those bugs (although really *hard* to understand in this case) but NO ONE (out of 20 testers) did find at least ONE or two of these bugs??? I guess it is not so much the number of bugs ("70+ bugs within weeks of release") that make me wonder how this could happen but the SIMPLICITY to find some of them! Basically you just have to make one little flight and hardly can AVOID finding them!Walter

Wow! I have really no more comment than to say "Amen" to eloquent response. Once again I find you persuasive, and it sure is "priceless" to have civilized discussion on a public forum even in the midst of tension. What a great community this can be.........sometimes! ;-)Regards,

"Until recently I held the post of ECP (Executive In Charge of Production) at Electronic Arts, the worlds largest most profitable software entertainment company with yearly revenues of $xx billion dollars."Any relation to this Andrew Whittaker?http://www.andywhittaker.com/personal/index.htmlCurrently using his excellent software/hardware to fix up my car. I guess computing runs in the Whittaker family :-)Cheers.Ian.

He will hate me for this! but just to let you know Andrew is one nice guy who at the moment is recovering from a broken back,and just starting to walk again.As well as his claim to fame in the PC games world, Andrew is also a fully qualified real world 747/400 etops captain and certified on the 73/76 as well.He works also for a charity.One of lifes gentlemen.

thank you for the kind words, but I am full of fault though, so not really one of lifes gentlemen :). Yep its right about the back, but dont worry, I didnt injure myself to the point where I snapped the spinal cord so Im expected to be back up to normal operation in the next six months or so, so as they say in Monty Python, 'tis merely a flesh wound :)) and hey its given me time to write all the drivel in the forums I post :)So no worries, but thanks ever so much for the comments, its nice to know Im appreciated!Andrew

Hi Ian,No nothing to do with me, just someone with the same name, not even a relative.I do know who has the domain name I wanted now though ;-)Andrew

Hello dear Andrew,do you mind sharing with me your URL? Well, unfortunately my WebSite is still in german, but I can read yours 'cause I do speak and write as well read a bit english, being able to communicate with you.Well, Do you think I should have a second version of my WebSite in english to get someday a international customer?>Hi Ian,>>No nothing to do with me, just someone with the same name, not>even a relative.>>I do know who has the domain name I wanted now though ;-)>>Andrew