Just a quick point.You cannot compare the MAC OS with Windows in this regard. The MAC OS is designed to run on the MAC platform that is also designed and built by Apple. They can therefore control the environment.The Windows operating systems are designed to run on Intel (and compatable) based systems, where there a thousands of different hardware vendors and consequently millions of different combinations. It is a miracle that they can keep all these combinations working.RegardsRussell Jourdain (NZL007/ZK-RHJ)

continued from post above :) Hi again Torben :)Your assertion that a team of beta testers can find all bugs just simply isnt the case. Im my own case for example I am ultra ultra careful about making sure that I squash bugs. I want to make sure that what I ship is the game I am promising people. I have a reputation for very high quality in my work and that is something I am proud of.A few years ago I was asked to start a new series of games, the "Alien Vs Predator" series. Heres a link to the box, minireview and my name in there somewhere for the very first version..http://www.mobygames.com/game/sheet/p,17/gameId,6690/I put my heart and soul into this game to make sure it was as good as it possibly could be. At the end of the project I even flew out leaving my family at home to the USA to sit by the betatesters in San Francisco so I could manage them and to fix anything quickly. The game shipped and everyone was very happy with it.Two years later a bug in the game was found by someone playing it. That was the first I had ever heard in that bug. When I went back over the code I found that it was a 1 in 25 million chance for all the variables in the game to lineup to that exact match that created this issue (it wasnt a fatal bug incidentally, the Alien Queen left her nest before she was supposed to! :) ). Its like you had as much chance of seeing that bug unless you played the game in that exact sequence for the previous couple of hours as of winning the national lottery. Betatesters cant find bugs that only show one in every x millions of permutations unless by sheer luck just like the lottery odds of seeing it.You mentioned the amiga, I made amiga games too, I got awards from all over the world for my amiga games. Here is an interview in an american games magazine that lists some of my amiga and PC games. I can tell you for now that two of those games have minor bugs in that I had no idea about until long after shipping also. Its a fact of life.http://jaguar.holyoak.com/library/gp6941.jpgAre there teams out there who rush products out onto the shelves, are there publishers who dont care about quality and just put it in a box and ship it. Yes there are, both in flightsim and traditional entertainment software. I have seen "payware" aircraft that look and fly more like Harry Potter's broomstick than the aircraft they are supposed to be modelling! So all those bad practices you mentioned, I couldnt agree more, they are out there in all branches of our industry and people like me who make games and care passionately about them (thats probably why my games chart) deplore these people. Were you are mistaken is in giving the impression that we all follow that path. Software companies are like individuals, all different with differing motivations and goals and standards.My personal opinion is that PMDG have very high standards, Vangelis's flight dynamics are the best Ive seen on a home box for example! They are doing their best in all areas with limited people and resources. They dont have a big shiny building full of people, just a few guys working their best from home.Your asking for support for developers is something that I am grateful to you for as a developer personally, Im sure PMDG are grateful for your comments too. Your right to keep banging the drum for better quality and more innovation. That is how progress is made. The only thing I ask you to bear in mind is that not all developers are bad developers, not all publishers are bad publishers. A lot of us try very hard and take pride in our work and care about customer needs.I firmly believe that PMDG are a good development team, one of the best, fully deservant of your/our support. Bugs are a fact of life, Robert has already apologised for the volume of bugs and they are unhappy too. Its sad, its a setback, but its not terminal, in a couple of months it will all be forgotten. To me it just means we all have to club together and help the PMDG guys with this even if the only support you can offer is patience that is something I am sure they will be eternally grateful for.Andrew

Andrew!Are you responsible for the AvP series?! Then you owe me a number of underwear since that game has ruined many of those for me! Still remember VIVIDLY the first time I played that game - I was standing in a corner, refusing to move one inch, just shooing out in the dark and looking at that blip Blip BLip BLIp BLIP!! thing. Then WHAM an alien in my face!!! I fell off the chair, my friend screamed and the other friend left my dark room! :)Come to think of it I never managed to finish that game since I was too scared! :) Sorry about this off topic thing! :)/Krister

Hi Krister,Yep that is me for my sins. Thank you so much for your comments, Ive heard similar from a few people now and makes me proud that people love the game so much and that I caught the atmosphere of the movie in the way I intended. Thank you so much, it means a lot!Andrew

Good to see more people from inside the business in here telling tales of the real world out there.I'm not in the games industry (except as a customer) but I recognise the things you're telling from personal experience.As to million to one chances, they indeed happen all the time (like Terry Pratchett puts it, million to one chances turn up 99 times out of 100).At one point we had a program crash the very first day after delivery to a large customer despite several months of testing by about 50 people (both ours and theirs) on identical hardware and operating system. Turned out the ONLY scenario that had not been incorporated in the testscripts (which were authored by longtime professional software testers) was precisely the scenario that happened to occur 5 minutes after the software was turned on.Took us all of 1 hour to fix, 1 week to test and 10 minutes to install but that did mean quite a big problem for them for a week.Was it bad software? No. Bad testing? Certainly not. But anyone can make mistakes and this could happen due to an unlucky combination of circumstances striking everyone together.A race condition in the software together with a tester forgetting to test for that condition in combination with that condition being triggered by a condition on the customer machine that would during normal operation (rather than initial installation) never occur caused a fatal error.

>As to million to one chances, they indeed happen all the time (like >Terry Pratchett puts it, million to one chances turn up 99 times >out of 100).And Terry would know too, at a science fiction convention where we were both guests Terry and I and a couple of the others decided to slope off from the place and get a curry. We had done everything right, made the reservations done the whole thing, excepting we decided to walk rather than get a cab. We got hopelessly lost. The rain suddenly decided to come down in bucketfuls with all cabs mysteriously disappearing off the streets at the first drop. We eventually found our restaurant just as we got to the door they put up the "closed" sign. We eventually ended up finding a back street chinese takeaway!Software is like that too, you think everything is sorted and all hell can suddenly break loose!take careAndrew

>progress is made. The only thing I ask you to bear in mind is>that not all developers are bad developers, not all publishers>are bad publishers. A lot of us try very hard and take pride>in our work and care about customer needs.>>I firmly believe that PMDG are a good development team, one of>the best, fully deservant of your/our support. Bugs are a fact>of life, Robert has already apologised for the volume of bugs>and they are unhappy too. Its sad, its a setback, but its not>terminal, in a couple of months it will all be forgotten. To>me it just means we all have to club together and help the>PMDG guys with this even if the only support you can offer is>patience that is something I am sure they will be eternally>grateful for.Very well written - this (almost) moved me to tears ;-)O.K. I lied. Nevertheless it IS well written and I could *ALMOST* agree to what you said. Principally I would have no problem to be a patient customer, waiting patiently for a patch, enduring very patiently all the bugs, enduring patiently the registration-process, asking - *VERY PATIENTLY* - for a new registration- code in case I have changed something on my PC which the software does not like, paying patiently 40 dollars for a product, praising (patiently) the (future) quality of the product, praising (patiently) the (really) good customer - service of the software-company etc etc Only that there are a few *patiently* too much, for my taste. Why is it the customers "duty" to be patient, tolerant and forgiving when it comes to software - products??? Where is the return service of the software - industry? We have to deal with high prices, registration-codes and bugs - but can we say (for example) "I would like to use your product but I will only be able to pay for it in a month"? I doubt that any software - company would be so patient and tolerant to wait for their money for a month (apart from trial-versions, which are rather used to PROMOTE a product).Yet this is more or less what you demand from your customers: pay for the product NOW and - maybe - it will work in a month! If it is that difficult to produce software which will be working correctly from the start on - than CHARGE for it NO SOONER than you KNOW that it is REALLY working!Walter

Well said as usual Walter. I have the feeling this thread will be locked or deleted though - it's getting negative.Rich.

Hi Walter,I would like to do away with registration codes and all forms of piracy protection too. Its a pain for the developer as much as for the consumer, but its forced upon both parties by the software pirate. I once had a letter from a guy in Finland praising me on how great my new game was, how he enjoyed doing this that and the other in the game, how he had made copies for all his friends. The downside for me was that this was a week before release! and he was talking about a cracked copy.Specifically to PMDG even through this patch process which has eaten into their every hour in fairness to them they listened to people and have realised an automated generator for licence codes.I for one, have never released software knowingly thinking it had a bug. Every title I have believed, hand on heart, that it was totally complete and ready to go. I cant imagine any software development team knowingly inflicting bugs onto the consumer, and certainly not one that will last in the business.As for high prices, certainly in my side of the business prices are based on development costs. Teams of 100 people and development budgets of 10 million dollars per title are not unknown which has to come back from somewhere. Either that or downgrade what goes into the product so the team can be reduced which knocks quality. (Im not saying that there isnt overpriced software out there, there always will be crap if someone unscrupulous is out to make a buck thats life, software companies are like car dealers, the great ones and the "honest johns" of the world).Some game publishers only make money on 1 in 4 game releases, that 4th having to subsidise the x million dollars spent on the other 3. There is no such thing as a sure fire hit, you realise the game and hope and pray that people like what you have done. If you make a product of the greatest quality you can there is still no guarantee of retail profits down the end, its down to consumer taste so profits from each title are a lottery where we bet on what people would like to buy. That bet doesnt always pay off.To answer your point on returns, all the companies I have worked for have had a very thorough and professional returns policy, so I cant comment beyond that to be honest. I for one have never ever demanded that users take one of my titles and "maybe" it will work in a month. Ive believed that it was ready to go. The PMDG guys believed that too when they released to you, from my personal opinion, and just my personal opinion, I believe that to be the case. There is absolutely no benefit to them to think otherwise. The quick sales profit approach doesnt work as a motivation to them, as if a product is released with bugs once that word is out sales generally go static until the fix.The only "duty" I have ever wanted to put on a customer is the hope that they will pay for my products rather than pirate so I can continue to feed my family. Every title I release has me wondering if people will like it and Im genuinely very grateful for sales. The hopes I have with customers is that they will enjoy my work, will enjoy it for a long time and hopefully let me know every so often, thats why I was so delighted with the comments about my game from the chap above.I believe that PMDG share those same hopes.Andrew

Hi Rich,I hope fervently that the thread isnt locked or deleted to be honest, negative or not. Im all in favour of views being aired. The only thing I take exception too is when people are nasty or abusive and in this thread I think everyone has been more than reasonable and voicing an opinion. I think that is healthy.I bought the aircraft the same as everyone else, so all I can share is my views and experiences as an entertainment software developer and the belief I have in my heart that the PMDG team have their hearts collectively in the right places. As such any replies Ive made in this thread have drawn on my own experiences of making entertainment software for 20 years. If that helps people so much the better, if it doesnt help people and they wish to debate thats healthy too. All I can do is express what life is like on the developer side of the fence. I hope I have done that fairly and candidly.Andrew

Andrew,I respect your views and appreciate you respect differing opinions to your own. That is what a forum is all about after all.I am concerned though that threads have been 'lost' in the past where it appears that someone has a rather negative view to share. I agree with you that one should not be abusive or defamatory when expressing their views, but one should be able to express their concerns or thoughts without the fear that the post will disapear. I've seen it happen more than once (not just here). It seems that the mods are rather trigger happy these days. I can appreciate there are a lot of 'trolls' to deal with, but a paying customer should be able to say they don't like something without having their post deleted or called names by other users (very common these days).At the end of the day differing opinions are healthy. If a developer or end-user can't deal with that then something is badly wrong. You pay your

Hi Rich, nothing to add to that except I agree 100%Andrew

>Hi Walter,>>I would like to do away with registration codes and all forms>of piracy protection too. Its a pain for the developer as much>as for the consumer, but its forced upon both parties by the>software pirate.I have no problem with piracy protection (after all I feel rather silly, too, paying for a product while pirates use it for free!) as long as it does not interfere with my own rights or does not impose all sorts of problems on me (in other words: piracy protection as it has been until very recently -Flight 1 used such methods - was OK for me.>I for one, have never released software knowingly thinking it>had a bug. Every title I have believed, hand on heart, that it>was totally complete and ready to go. I cant imagine any>software development team knowingly inflicting bugs onto the>consumer, and certainly not one that will last in the>business.But that

Hi Andrew,I've read this thread with great interest and appreciate your comments. I also am a software developer but I don't feel it necessary or important to list credentials or qualifications as, in my opinion my contribution to this thread will not require authoritative validation.I have appreciated your comments and agree wholly. There is no doubt in my mind that PMDG deserves more credit than they are receiving. I have but only one post in this forum in which I praised PMDG - other than that I have been silent on the whole issue of "buggy software". Also, I feel regardless of how a PMDG customer felt upon release of this product, a PMDG customer would have "eyes wide shut" if they could not acknowledge that PMDG is frustrated themselves over the initial release, and fully intend to make sure the same thing does not happen with the patch. To PMDG I say, "Take as long as you want with the patch...I'll wait patiently however long is necessary."I simply would like to make one comment regarding a statement in one of your previous posts in this thread. This statement reverbated along with my own feelings regarding this whole situation.In reference to describing that with your best attempts, your games did on occasion release with bugs. In two cited examples the instances were "two years later" and "one year later" with one of the instances having a "1 in 25 million chance" of occurance. Yes, bugs do slip by, they have and they always will...but 70+ bugs within weeks of release that went unnoticed by beta testers?!? Which brings me to my point...I guess I have never questioned PMDG (metaphorically speaking) unless it was for their choice in beta testers. My questioning (again metaphorically) has been with the beta testers themselves. Now I know I stepped on some toes here...especially as there is more than one beta tester active in this forum going above and beyond (IMO) to assist customers in every way possible (and let me just say how much I respect those efforts). But let me explain my dissapointment.I discovered the fire bottle discharge / fuel imbalance / FMC crossing restriction bugs on my maiden flight. And not one of the beta testers found these? I guess I just can't seem to wrap my arms around that one. You mean to tell me that not one beta tester used the FMC extensively enough on a flight where a crossing restriction above 10K was entered? Hard to believe. Makes one wonder if the FMC was even tested, right? What about the insufficient fuel message? I got that also on my first maiden flight. The only way that I can imagine beta testers did not get this FMC message is that they were always thousands of pounds overloaded on fuel for the flight - like flying on full tanks or something. Or, just maybe none of them used the FMC...I don't know.Andrew, surely you must agree that the beta testing cycle of this product - even on the lesser scale that it is in comparision to your experience - was not as effective as it could have been? I'm not insisting by any means that ALL bugs should have been discovered, but surely the bug list should/could have been shorter?And I ask of any beta testers reading this, please understand the spirit of this reply to Andrew and realize there is no need to take offense. I hope that will be possible.Having now drafted this lengthy reply, I'm really not one to flog a dead issue, so I'm hoping that PMDG's recent communication and response with a patch will put this topic to rest. For me, it is painfully clear that PMDG takes their commercial enterprises personally - and that is always good thing for customers.

Hi Andrew,very well said!Well, I dont wanna say all developers wanna push it without care. When I wanna do a WebSite just right and perfect I cannot sleep 'till I got it right and I stress many online friends and people to look into what I created and I wanna hear as many critism as they can give me. The more the better what matters displayability, loading speed, error free working effects and perfect navigation. The graphic design is for every owns mind different and I have to watch out whom I wanna reach with this design of the website. Who is gonna be the customer or the user surfing exactly this website. When I have a customer who orders a specific design or gives me some ideas how it should look like and gives me about enough own graphis, logo etc, so I can make up some good design, I am almost happy. BUT than I look and study it, my customer, his company, his marketing goal etc. and when I see there is some other way to get it even better and reach more people with the website as a adverticement, I tell him and try to talk him into that. I wanna do my best and as much as I can and I am able to do for good hard earned money. I want it perfect for him as well as for me if it is not just a simple homepage with some standard stuff I am doing in shortest of time needed.Well, I have met Bill Gates in Germany Hannover at the German CeBit some many years ago. He was with his motto "Information at your Fingertips"! What his show showed was great and was futuristic! His speech was great as well! So, what has MS become untill now? They wanna be the only existing OS developer and market leader ever! They talked the hardware companies into implementing spy chips which are sending information out to MS and as well can be used to bind the customer to THIS hardware when installing Windows and Office etc.That is totaly a different story that what he and his show told us many years ago at the CeBit! And what about that MS html and XML and JavaScript is not totaly compatible with the 3W consortium rules and what Netscape does. There will be a point realy in near future where I have to do every website twice at least so it gets displayed right in IE and as well in Netscape and Mozzilla and other Linux browsers. WHY???!!!Because of Bill I cannot to my job as well as I want to! And often I have to tell customers that not all is doable caused by IE limitations etc. That is frustrating!Have you heard about TCPA????Ok, I think PMDG Team is realy good and treating us customers very well. I can feel with them about having not released a almost bug-free B737TNG and I saw some of the bugs at the first run I would have discovered easily as a beta-tester. Is that because of the complexity and diversity of wide spread different compination Intel based PC Hardware? Why are there no real compatibility rules that bounds every hardware developer and company so they are working together without errors? I had to buy almost best high end quality hardware party for my PC so it now works with Windows XP pro almost all the time without problems and bugs by the OS system. But I still have and bumb over some software I can only install and run single without combinate them with other HOT software. But which software is HOT with others? I had to find that out the hard way. But when I install SuSe 8.2 and choose software party for installation in bundle, SuSe tells me if the one or the other would not and can not work together. But there are just some notes about problems reported by customer at the MS own website, nothing when I buy a software or when I install it. Why not? PROFIT! It would get not sold when there would be too many warnings, right? What a nitemare for the producing companies! But would it be sooo diffecult to develope and programm a software so it is high end and runs with about every other high end software someone could buy?See what Adobe and Macromedia are fighting each other! Do you know about that? They make there software incompatible against each other so the one or the other can make more PROFIT, right?But I have to work with both! I wanna be able to import a Illustrator vector drawing into Flash MX, but I cant! I have to use Freehand which is less good than Illustrator! What are my choices????And that only because these two are fighting each other at the market and I am the market, I am a professional customer! I loos time or quality I could produce when I would be able to import Illustrator graphics into Flash. Same goes with MacroMedia vectore stuff importing into Adobe Director.Ok, nugh cried about the software market war going on, isnt it?What can WE do to bring others and more to do quality developement than to push buggy software into the market? I could become more and more a software and graphic designer and buy myself a nice "3D Studio Max" I have learned to create nice 3D graphis and movies. But I have not the