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O.K. This will be my last message as it is obviously completely useless to seek some help here. But just to clear things up:You wrote:>No, it is not about "protecting developers". It is about making sure >that the people who can help you most with whatever problem you >might be having actually see your post. It is intensely frustrating >to see your product being panned on another website due to an easily >fixable flaw when you have not been given the opportunity to fix the >problem via the normal support channels.Is this a joke or didn

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As you know Walter, I agree with you 100%.Tom EvansBAV 757/767 Training Captain

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Yes, this is a flight simulation forum. Yes, IN PRINCIPLE, discussing the pros and cons of the support from a particular vendor should be allowed. Yes, when you can't get help from that vendor, you should be able to turn to a forum such as this one.Here comes the but...But... Folks have repeatedly shown that when it comes to vendors, and we'll keep specific vendors out of this discussion (PLEASE!!!!), things get heated pretty quickly, especially when the described problem is one that obstensibly can be found in a manual somewhere or by looking through earlier threads in their support forum.So, what are we at AVSIM to do? You tell me.

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Last last message :-)Well, you could at least wait UNTIL things have heated up and THEN lock (but not delete) the thread...W.P.S.(Sorry if you had expected a better advice but its after midnight here and I now really must go to bed :-) )

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I personally do not have the problem you are experiencing. I would be glad to try and help. Unfortunately, it appears you now have less than an open mind.Normally, folks at the DF forum are very tolerant. I reviewed the posts over at that forum. There was not enough info to trouble shoot the problem. The post went basically like this - "The aircraft nose dives when I engage the approach mode on the autopilot. It needs a patch -fix it."Vortex, my advice - Talk to Flight One. Get your money back. I don't think any trouble shooting or technique changes will satisfy you now. Get your money back.Regards,

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Many thanks for your reply. I appreciate your offer for help but you misunderstood my message. I have more or less come to peace with my DF-737 (not neccessarily with Lou Betti

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As before I agree with you 101%. This is not about a product and a problem this a about attitude against customers. And that should be something we can adress here.I get along pretty well with my DF, and I can autoland it. To get it right you have to get it stable on the glideslope and only then hit the appr hold button. The question is wether or not this is realistic.I am not a pilot so I have no idea, but I have read various comments from pilots that say it is totally uinrealistic.But at the time I bought mine I was checking their support forum regularly and I have to say that I was shocked by the way the customers are treated there. The overall tone is very friendly, but the bottom line always is: "You are too dumb." or "There is something completely wrong with your system". And like Pawlows dogs the customers are condotioned pretty well in the meantime. Every thread start with: " DF is the greatest product in the world, but I wouild like to adress this little problem I have because I am dumb, and maybe the gurus of flightsim would be kind enough to adress this although it might be my fault...".Basically I did not really mind. I was able to sort out my problems by myself, and hey, they are doing great products. But after thinking about all this I meanwhile decided that the DF Archer was the last program I bought from them

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>As before I agree with you 101%. This is not about a product >and a problem this a about attitude against customers. And >that should be something we can adress here. >>I get along pretty well with my DF, and I can autoland it. >To get it right you have to get it stable on the glideslope >and only then hit the appr hold button. The question is >wether or not this is realistic. >I am not a pilot so I have no idea, but I have read various >comments from pilots that say it is totally uinrealistic. I am also not a pilot but if this were realistic I would never ever fly again in the real world :-)>>But at the time I bought mine I was checking their support >forum regularly and I have to say that I was shocked by the >way the customers are treated there. The overall tone is >very friendly, but the bottom line always is: "You are too >dumb." or "There is something completely wrong with your >system". And like Pawlows dogs the customers are condotioned >pretty well in the meantime. Every thread start with: " DF >is the greatest product in the world, but I wouild like to >adress this little problem I have because I am dumb, and >maybe the gurus of flightsim would be kind enough to adress >this although it might be my fault...". Strange that you mention this. I thought of writing down the "method" you have to use in the DF-Forum to maybe get help from them in one of my messages (and forgot to do this). But the way you described this is 100% the way I wanted to describe this "method" myself! You first have to praise DF, then humiliate yourself and then ask -very humbly - for help (often for a problem you did not cause yourself)...>>Basically I did not really mind. I was able to sort out my >problems by myself, and hey, they are doing great products. >But after thinking about all this I meanwhile decided that >the DF Archer was the last program I bought from them

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Absolutely spot on guys!And Alex, you're English is very good - couldn't have chosen better words myself :-)Tom EvansBAV 757/767 Training Captain

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If it's a complaint about support and customer service, then by all means, don't do business with that company.If I don't like the treatment I get, I get new treatment from someone else. Good heavens, I can't even count the number of places where I was treated like pond scum.If you don't like the product and there's no solution to make it work for you and you can't get a refund, well, that's the way it is. I'd love to get my money back for countless things I've bought through the years that didn't work to my satisfaction. This applies to everything from software to TV's to my sofa (which I custom ordered and now it's mine). However, software is so subjective that I just throw it out if I don't like it and eat the money loss. This was the case of the Tofflemire 747-200 panel.Life is full of risks and gambles.But if you don't take the risk then you'll never do anything.Just chalk it all up to experience and move on to someone else's company.

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>If it's a complaint about support and customer service, then >by all means, don't do business with that company. That

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I shouldn't say anything.....nope I'm not going to.....well maybe just a little......nope, stay out of it......aw shucks, I gotta!First of all, let me hunker down in my bunker before I start, as I'm sure to get barraged. But this is NOT a slam on anyone in particular. It's NOT personal. It's just that I have a different view on some things than many here, which is fine. Or at least it should be.There are two things that happen here regularly that get under my skin. The first is that I come to a forum to get (and give) useful information about flight simming and have to wade thru endless complaints which all basically say the same thing..."Avsim is being mean to me". My second pet peave hits me personally, because I go thru the same thing with my aircraft designs. I really should post some of the e-mails I've gotten this week, most having to do with the size of the wheels on a 727. It is really annoying to see people who use a free service and/or product spouting (and in some cases demanding) what should and should not happen with those FREE services/products.No people, we shouldn't be able to discuss this, and shouldn't be able to discuss that. What we SHOULD have is the PRIVELEGE to discuss what the owners and operators feel is appropriate. Nothing more, nothing less. Does this mean they shouldn't listen to the users. No. But then they've proven time and again that they do listen. There was a gripe storm recently about a fact that there should be seperate library groups for aircraft and repaints. The next day, there was one. Just because we feel we should have the right to discuss something, doesn't make it so. There are those who believe they should be able to openly talk during a movie at the theatre. But the management of our theatre thinks otherwise, and I've seen more than a few folks escorted out quite angrily. It's private property. Freedom of speech doesn't apply.By the way, I recently had a problem with a product I purchased. It lacked a feature that was clearly advertised. Notes on the companies web site and phone calls accomplished nothing. Now I could have clogged up Avsim's forums complaining about it. Instead I clogged up the one's at the Better Business Bureau and my state's Attorney General's office, fraud division. That's what they are there for. Within a week I had a full refund from the company and an appology letter. Much better use of my time. OK, I've said too much already. My wife's fixing breakfast. Time to run and eat and then jump back in my bunker. Mike Stone

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Dear Mike,I have not the slightest idea what you just said or wanted to say. Sorry.Alex

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>I have a different view on some things than many here, which >is fine. Or at least it should be. OK this IS fine (to me in any case)...>>There are two things that happen here regularly that get >under my skin. The first is that I come to a forum to get >(and give) useful information about flight simming and have >to wade thru endless complaints which all basically say the >same thing..."Avsim is being mean to me". My second pet >peave hits me personally, because I go thru the same thing >with my aircraft designs. I really should post some of the >e-mails I've gotten this week, most having to do with the >size of the wheels on a 727. It is really annoying to see >people who use a free service and/or product spouting (and >in some cases demanding) what should and should not happen >with those FREE services/products. 1. Personally I would NEVER complain about something I got for free.2. If you think about it isn

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Well Mr. Stone,I am slightly impressed about your presumptions about what I would or would not understand just from the knowledge of one or two post I made. By the way I would never ever complain about a freeware. This is a totally different story. What was dicussed here is concerning a payware product and that gives it a totally different angle. I understand that you are upset about those e-mail u are getting and you have every right to be. What I cannot understand is what it has in common with the topic that was discussed here. Therefore I do not understand what you wanted to say with this regarding this thread.BTW, if you would read my threads I am always on the side of freeware authors and if u would search this forum for my threads u might find that I opened one exactly pointing on those who have the feeling that freeware authors "owe" them something. As far as I can remember you were also participating with one or two posts.This forum should in my humble opinion not only have the purpose of gathering technical information about flightsims. And also IMHO getting information about the support of a payware company is usful information for me. I always check this forum and ask people for their opinion on a product before I buy it.Your are right of course that this is private ground and that the owners can decide what can or cannot be discussed here. But why should that keep me from saying my opinion about that. And the fact that this thread is still open tells me that "the owners" seem to have a more liberal approach on this than you have.At this point I would like to express my thx that "the owners" left this thread open up to now.On the other hand I am starting to believe that I will end participating in this from now on because this has become a lot more serious than it should be, and I used to be here for the fun of it. I am out of it before it escalates because on 2nd thought the topic is really not worth it.Alex

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