If anyone could please give me some help on these questions, I would appreciate it.[br,br,br] Question # 1.[br,br,br]I read somewhere that, for runway alignment, in a commercial jet that pilots will use rudder only?If this is accurate, my question is this:[br]At what height would ailerons cease to be used?[br][br]Is this based solely on wing proximity to the ground or are there standard procedures which cover this?Question 2.[br][br]Is there a minimum distance out from the runway that the 767 would be permitted to make 90 degree turn in order to be lined up with it? Thank youNorm

Hiya Norm, some attempts at answers.1. There is no fixed general anser to this. It depends on how strong the crosswind is blowing, if the engines are wing-, or bodymounted weight (I guess) and probably other things as well. The general method is to crab, i.e. point the nose into the wind so that the plane flies straight down the runway and then de-crab. The pilot uses the rudder to straighten the plane so the nose points down the runway. Do this too soon and the plane will drift away the centreline (and in worst case off the runway) due to the crosswind, too late and the plane will not be aligned and lots of rubber will be torn off the tyres.Just as you say, the main reason for not flying with a wing low into the wind is that larger aircraft have longer wings and also engines underneath the wings. A low wing approach will send all of that into the ground, compared to a GA that has relatively short wings.2. Not being a pilot, but again I

Norm,"I read somewhere that, for runway alignment, in a commercial jet that pilots will use rudder only?"You'd do that only if you wanted to be directly responsible for the death of around 500 people!You'll never ever use rudder to get aligned. You can do it on a Cessna but not on a commercial aircraft. The fuselage is just too long and with the rudders effectiveness you could snap off the tail!Rudder is only used:-during engine out ops-to de-crab the a/c during a crosswind landing (at the last stage)-to keep the a/c straight during the t/o and landing roll.-to adjust for an assymerric airframe.That's it.PS check the search function next time - I recall answering this question over 4 times now :-)Regards,Mark

>If he

>Question 2.[br][br]>>Is there a minimum distance out from the runway that the 767>would be permitted to make 90 degree turn in order to be lined>up with it? A great description of "normal" visual approach procedures :http://www.smartcockpit.com/operations/vis...0approaches.PDFMike

>Norm,>>"I read somewhere that, for runway alignment, in a commercial>jet that pilots will use rudder only?">>You'd do that only if you wanted to be directly responsible>for the death of around 500 people!>You'll never ever use rudder to get aligned. You can do it on>a Cessna but not on a commercial aircraft. The fuselage is>just too long and with the rudders effectiveness you could>snap off the tail!>Rudder is only used:>-during engine out ops>-to de-crab the a/c during a crosswind landing (at the last>stage)>-to keep the a/c straight during the t/o and landing roll.>-to adjust for an assymerric airframe.>>That's it.>PS check the search function next time - I recall answering>this question over 4 times now :-)>>Regards,>>MarkActually, rudders are used, but not to the extent that ailerons are obviously. Commercial aircraft include prop airliners, and any prop a/c will use rudders as well. Rudders are very important to us in the C-130 taht's for sure.Now, as far as rudders being used to line up, it's a personal preference, but I only use them for smal, small adjustments while flying the ILS. And, of course, to realign the fuselage to prevent landing in a crab.

Obviously, rudders will be used during turns to keep turns coordinated. On larger aircraft, however, this is done automatically by the yaw dampers - no pilot input needed. Should the Y/D fail, no pilot should manually "correct" - the risk of damage is just too high!The AA A300 crash over NY was due to false rudder techniques used by the crew. Never flew the C130, but I doubt it has the dimensions of a 767!Some level D sims will freeze flight the moment you apply rudder during normal operations (ie not in the situations I described above) just to point out this error.Regards,Mark

Thanks Mark and also to all who replied. It is great to be able to tap into such a knowledge base. I do, however, have a couple of responses for you Mark regarding your reply.. First of all, I would like to say that is unfair to assume that searches were not done prior to postings. Indeed they were, sir, but they failed to produce, either, your 4 prior posts on this, or a satisfactory answer to my questions.. It was probably my choice of keywords used in the searches that negated results. If this was the case

HaHa, the C-130 isn't near the dimensions of the B767. But, I wonder, when does the yaw damper get turned off on the approach. From what I remember of my Beechjet days, it's just got to be turned off before landing, but I remember turning it off on short final, maybe just before.But, you're right, the Airbus crash was contributed to improper rudder input.

Hi Norm et al,after re-reading your question and Tord's reply, I think I jumped too quickly - it wasn't exactly the same question so to find the posts I mentioned you would have had to rephrase the question - sorry.Anyways, when you talk of the final segment, are you talking about the last 20 ft of the approach or more like the last 1500 ft?Again, at 1500 ft you'll still only want to be using aileron input only and let the yaw damper take care of coordinating the rudder with your input. Already a slight deflection back and forth of the rudder can cause major oscillations. Not only is it dangerous, but passengers not seated directly near the CG will get sick.MSFS doesn't really simulate anything in this regard - from dutch roll to oscillations. Therefore, it would be extremeley difficult for the PIC team to model the responses correctly. You'd need the acceleration around the Z axis to know when you reach the limit and I wonder if MSFS actually computes this?Regarding yaw dampers, they are never switched off. On smaller aircraft you'll turn them on for landings/takeoff because they take away authority from the crew (you have to override them). On the 767, the yaw damper won't fight you if you manually add rudder input. Unforunately again, MSFS doesn't simulate a correct yaw damper for this type of aircraft.Regards,Mark

Small mistake in my last post and seems can't edit it so here it is:This line"On smaller aircraft you'll turn them on for landings/takeoff because "should of course read"On smaller aircraft you'll turn them OFF for landings/takeoff because "

Interesting, thanks Mark for clarifying that. I didn't know the 767 yaw damper wasn't turned off, I'll have to remember that.Yaw damper in the C-130 is also called the co-pilot, I'm always having to yell to get him off the rudder pedals, lol.

Hello Mark Thanks again for yout response. Yes, indeed, I was referring to the last 20 - 30 ft. Your answer makes perfect sense and,understandably to expect PIC to calculate these kind of oscillations would probablybe beyond the scope of the software. I have already resorted back to the methodology I was using before (small aileron inputs and yaw dampers)Would you mind giving me your input on the second part of my question which was to do with the minimum distance out from touchdown that a 90 degree turn on to final should be attempted?The reason I ask this is because I use a flight frequently (self generated) where I have to do this and find that it is always difficult to achieve final alignment on glideslope (manual control all the way)I only wonder if there are any recommended minimums advised or approved for this type of manoeuvre?By the way, I visited your sites and they are very informative. Thanks againNorm

Hi Norm,there are no direct limitations on that part.Usually, the airline's SOP would dictate the minimum altitude (which then affects how long you extend your downwind past the runway threshhold).Most airlines use 1000 ft AGL. Passing the threshold you either fly for 30 or 45 seconds and then start the turn towrads final (this include a 180

Hi MarkThank you, that helps a lot.Keep up the good work.Best regardsNorm