Hi all.I don

Well this is obviously an interesting point...But it is really difficult to get to the point because there is people not interested on this, lucky you didnt get a bad response.All you seem to say makes sense. I also used both VATSIM and IVAO i found no difference between them,not any important difference.But for some reason people that manage both organizations dont want to even consider the idea.Right now we have a lot of fun flying online but things could have progressed a lot more if efforts would not have splitted in two directions. Or even being two separate organizations they could have collaborated a bit more.Despite we cannot do anything to change this since user opinion is not an option dont doubt that a lot of users are asking themselves this same question.

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Hello,here

The thing that makes this seem very odd to me, is the fact that there is no difference, from the users point of view, to operation between IVAO and VATSIM. I could understand it if IVAO didn

Hello Bjarne,there are in fact differences between IVAO and VATSIM. Let me pick up one example: At IVAO every member gains the right to provide ATC services when signs up. The local IVAO divisions (their equivalent to VATSIMs vACCs/ARTCCs) can restrict certain positions from being staffed with newbies, but generally every IVAO Member is allowed to provide ATC services on lower ATC positions from the first day of its membership.In VATSIM this is restricted. A new member get a status as pilot/observer only, he can

Hi Martin.You are probably right that at IVAO you can just log in and start controlling as Clearence Delivery, while at VATSIM you will have to be observer for some hours, and at most VACCs you will have to pass some kind of written test. Which method is the correct one? Well my guess is that it would be the one, where the pilots meets the best ATC...but this is my point, because from my perspective I see no difference. I also once were a hardcore VATSIM, believing the romours that IVAO were more amateurish, because of the "fell free to do what you want" or maybe rather "You will let you lose under your own responsibility". But after having flown with them for a long period, I have not had more problems with newbies than on VATSIM. Thats why I state that the differences/problems between IVAO and VATSIM are "paper-problems" that the pilots aren

>Hi Martin.>>You are probably right that at IVAO you can just log in and>start controlling as Clearence Delivery, while at VATSIM you>will have to be observer for some hours, and at most VACCs you>will have to pass some kind of written test.Hi Bjarne,sorry, please be precise. At VATSIM you need a rating upgrade to student, which hast to be issued by a vACC. There is NO automatic upgrade after certain hours.At IVAO you are generally allowed to provide ATC services as part of your membership, as long as the position is not affected by restricted ratings. I know that f.E. IVAO germany has lots of RR for positions like CTR and APP, but generally you are not limited to delivery.>Which method is>the correct one? Well my guess is that it would be the one,>where the pilots meets the best ATC...but this is my point,>because from my perspective I see no difference. I also once>were a hardcore VATSIM, believing the romours that IVAO were>more amateurish, because of the "fell free to do what you>want" or maybe rather "You will let you lose under your own>responsibility". But after having flown with them for a long>period, I have not had more problems with newbies than on>VATSIM.I tend to agree with you, at least to a certain point. In both organizations there are people who work with passion and dedication, and naturally the outcome of their hard work will be very much similar in the long end. And to generalize one as "amateurish" is something I never do. However, my position, that the MEANS and WAYS to achieve these goals are different, still stands :). Thats why I state that the differences/problems>between IVAO and VATSIM are "paper-problems" that the pilots>aren

Hallo everybody and particularily Martin,You have given a lot of insight into the situation and of course you are a very legitimate source of information being one of the Vatsim legends out there.I met you in person and also flew online with you at the scope and was deeply impressed by your profesionalism and dedication.Fact is, however, that Harv's reply does not give a clear answer to the question posted.He talks about differences, but does not name any.My diagnose of the problem lays in line with other poster in here: both governing bodies out there do not seem to bother too much with the rest of us.If there are differences, they certainly are not of the magnitude prohibiting the merging process to be initiated and successfully completed. There is not a problem of technical differences between them two, but rather mental (read political ones) in the heads of Managers that make it impossible at this point.Any network is made of people using it, not the Managers.We have seen a major exodus of Vatsim users at the time the IVAO's pilot client bacame available, yet again we see them coming back to try out the new SB3.If the management bodies want their Organisations to blossom and become better (read more congested with traffic) they should at least listen to users' opinions.My humble idea is to publish an official poll among users of both networks with a simple question: do you or do you not want both orgs to merge.I am very confident that the outcome would be quite dramatic.Then again, I do not think that anybody out there at the top is really interested in risking it to prove their point invalid.Once again, my humble idea - been flying Vatsim continously for 5 years and recently joined the IVAO to try them out - they are all equally professional as Vatsim guys.Another myth has been brought to its knees.I do not want this thread to be interpreted as negative or condemning in any way - just trying to voice concerns of many users out there who want to really be heard.All the best to you Martin and looking forward to talking to you on the radio very soon....Dom

Be glad you have a choice and competition...In the past there was only SATCO and it was a disaster. People being banned for no reason or made up reason, controllers who were only interested in bossing people around, new members being verbally abused by controllers and experienced pilots alike.IVAO was created to counter that and it worked. SATCO collapsed and VATSIM rose from the ashes.I was a member of SATCO in its last days and it was simply no fun. I signed up with IVAO early on but never could get their service to work and when I tried again later I couldn't get my account working (and no response from the administrators to requests).So I signed up with VATSIM and never looked back.Now VATSIM isn't perfect. There are still controllers who are on a powertrip or downright unprofessional in other ways. I've some chilling tales about that. But overall it's a nice and friendly environment that sadly doesn't have much coverage in the areas where I usually fly (which admittedly are somewhat remote and see little traffic).I fear that if and when IVAO and VATSIM were to merge you'd again get SATCO and all the problems that led to its demise.