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Logitech Wingman Attack 2

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Dear all,I'm planning to make a boeing 737 type throttle quadrant. I will buy winman attack 2 as I need the ready use potentiometer. It's by far, the cheapes joystick I got.From the spec I got, It has 3 axis, without twist rudder. It's a USB joystick.Anybody having experience using this part of this joystick to build throttle??ThanksArif

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Hi Arif. I just got the same stick for the same reasons. To gut it. I used it in a couple of sims first just to try it out and I thinks I just fine. I took it apart to have a peak in. I managed to get it back together but forgot to measure the resistance on the pots. The pots are tiny !Did you get any where with your throttle yet. Please let me know.Mike

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Good idea. I was also looking at the Extreme Digital 3D for the extra axis and 8-way hat but it costs twice as much. One Extreme and one Attack 2 would end up:Extreme:4 axes (elevator, aileron, throttle, rudder)7 programmable buttons8-way hatAttack 2:3 axes (mixture, prop speed, anything else analog)6 programmable buttonsBut for the same price (and the use of one more USB port), you could get three Attack 2 sticks which is perfect for a twin-engine setup:9 axes (elevator, aileron, rudder, left/right throttle, left/right mixture, left/right prop speed)18 buttonsMike, do you know if FS and/or FSUIPC can properly interact with three Attack 2 sticks?Peter http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/PeterR.gifBFU Forums Moderator

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Well this is all new to me. Since it is a WingMan and I know the pc knows this because it shows up in the setup as a WingMan may be a problem. I know you can connect as many USB devices as you want, no prob, but two WingMan....hmmm.When thinking about how many axis you will need or want don't forget to consider trim. I'm thinking the "multiturn pots" would work great for this. I think 10 turns are common.Also there is a guy on the forum here...I think his name is LeoL or something like that. He sells the usb chips all ready for your project (20 bucks). Also has a diagram showing how to put it all together.At least the mechanical end shouldn't be too hard to figure out :)Mike

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Yeah, I've checked out Leo's stuff. Pretty cool. But for the price, the sticks give you the converter, pots, and switches. Quite nice. And you can find used sticks all over the place; some have more axes and buttons. Don't have to pay retail.Anyway, the only question at this point is whether more than one of the same stick will work. If not, then I guess I'll be shopping for different brands to mix and match. I have a USB gamepad somewhere that I'm going to investigate too.Peter http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/PeterR.gifBFU Forums Moderator

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I think that the only part that is useable is the converter. I don't like the buttons, besides they are the type that are soldered to a pc board with a secondary pad over top to press. I have lots of these buttons that I saved out of old printers and such. And the pots are very small. If we need to add gears or levers to them it could be tricky. I also wonder what the quality is like on these pots. One way to check is to go and get another "attack 2" :)Mike

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>When thinking about how many axis you will need or want >don't forget to consider trim. I'm thinking the "multiturn >pots" would work great for this. I think 10 turns are >common. Just remember that "Trim potentiometer" and "autopilot" dont mix unless you have some motorized trim wheel that moves the pot according to the autopilot adjustments.A rotary that gives pulses for "elevator trim up" and "... down" works better since then the trimwheel itself doesnt have a "position" and thus it does not jump around to a different position and make your autopilot and nice cruise very confused when you touch it (or if the potentiometer value varies slightly because of interference or such)Or was there a better solution to this problem? I remember there was discussion but it was a while ago..Tuomas

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Guest LeoL

It's ok, I didn't take any offense to your statement. Trust me I know, I'm always checking Ebay for great deals on cheap used sticks... ;)

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I was just wondering if it's OK to use 1meg pots with the USB system ? This eliminates the need for gears.ThanksMike

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Guest LeoL

>I was just wondering if it's OK to use 1meg pots with the >USB system ? This eliminates the need for gears. >As far as I know from my own USB modules and even RadioShack's, you can't use a 1 Meg pot, 100K max or less is the standard. If you want to make the pot more (or less) sensitive and eliminate reduction gears then you simply need to change the timing capacitor on these modules. It's gonna be tough to do with the RadioShack module since the caps are tiny surface mounts.You need to keep in mind that the pots in 99% of these devices (game port, USB, etc) only vary the voltage ratio to the input. As such, that means it does matter what your pot value is, if your Vcc is say 5V and you turn your pot half way, you'll read 2.5V on the output regardless of your pot Ohmage. Try it yourself and you'll see with any pot. It's simply a design standard that we use 100K in order to keep the current within an operational range of IC

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Hi Leo, thanks for the reply. That's what I was afraid of.So If I used the 1meg and set it up with the meter so it was giving me the correct voltage it may work. I guess I could send it 5v and then turn it untill the meter says 0 and that would be the useable portion of the pot. Or is the overly simplistic ?This one is for FS foot pedals so I guess I can use the gameport for that one. The guy that baacked up my whole idea Steve, has a web page that show how he did a helo set up using the gameport and the 1meg pots.Mike

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Guest LeoL

You know what...I totally forgot how game ports worked. It's been years since I used one! My bad.Yes the 1meg would work fine with a game port because I remember that they use the pot directly to set the RC constant, whereas with USB designs, the pot is used to charge a capacitor and a separate resistor is used for the RC constant. I won't get into the theory of what an "RC constant" is except to say that its used to determine what position your pot is in.So changing your pot from 100K to 1meg should have the effect you want of changing the range of motion with standard game ports.Sorry about the mix-up. I hope I didn't confuse the hell outta you. :(-Leo

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Thanks Leo. So it looks like if I want to get away from gears I'm stuck with game ports. Everything is a trade off.So I guess I could tie the pedals together with the collective and still get 4 buttons out of the game port. I would have to use a USB joystick now. Not the end of the world, it's just that I like my oldTM Mark I.I wonder if the pots that are in the Logitech stick are any good, quality wise. I think if I used them they would be garbage in no time. Them I'm right back to finding a suitable replacement. I checked the Logitech site but didn't see anything about replacement parts.I just got back from town. Picked up a set of tie rod ends (ball type) that I can tie the pedals together with. They are little bigger than what is needed but since I'm welding everything else I figure these things will be indestructable.One other idea I had. I wonder if a capacitor could be used to sort of filter out amy spikes being sent to the gameport ? Maybe it would but at the same time it would be a built in delay in any changes too ??Thanks yet again.Mike

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Peter, I think he only has the TM MK I FCS Joystick. He's using a collector and rudder I assume for a heli-sim so my conversion project might not be ideally suited for his needs since it's primarily for the WCS with the 24 tot buttons.Mike, you're not stuck with using the game port if you want to avoid using reduction gears. With a USB module you can also connect all your pots to it including the TM HAT on the FCS and adjust the capacitor value to get the range you want. If you tell me specifically what you need (no of axis + TM HAT + no of but) I might be able to modify my code for this.Unfortunately I can only offer you the USB Chip and you'll need to solder the circuit yourself. See the link Peter posted for a pic of my prototype.If you're interested, just tell me the max degrees all your pots will turn, I will be able to figure out what value Cap you will need to use.As for spikes and such, I filter the values from the pots in the code. With a game port you can't use a cap to filter the output because you would effectively be changing the RC constant by adding said filter cap. Unfortunately MS Joystick calibration routine in the control panel does a poor job (if at all) of filtering out spikes. I had the same problem with own TM FCS, but my pots were in such bad shape I replaced them with new ones.You have got to post a pic of your Pedals! I would really like to see it. I'm rudderless at the moment and I really don't like what's currently available on the market. I am thinking of making my own. Peter I envy you and your Metal TM pedals!!!!! Those still sell for $100+ on Ebay USED whenever they come up!-Leo

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Guest LeoL

If I recall, the pedals were molded plastic were they not and held in place by a metal rod? With some mod to them, why not add a coil spring of some kind and use pots for braking instead of switches! I'm pretty sure USB specs support analog brakes and are recognized as such by DirectX. I remember seeing it and saying hmmm...I could use that someday. ;)-Leo

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Well guys. I was just over at my Dads workshop and got a bunch of pieces cut out for the pedals. Had to start somewhere I guess. These things will be so heavy ! I'm using lawnmower tie rod ends. They are 3/8" rod instead of 1/16" that most people end up with using the R/C stuff. I'll get that much put together and then figure out the angles. My pedals are made of 1" round tube welded to 1 1/2" x 3/16" flat bar which in turn is welded to 1/2" shaft. The shaft is split so when a pedal is pushed down the opposite may come up. The shaft is set up on bronze bushings and the pivot for the rod ends has a bushing also. I have a digital camera here. Don't know what's involved in posting pics though.As far as the USB goes I do have 4 USB ports here. I got the RadioShack converter for the TM stick. My x axis is hurtin though. I had a look at the TM site for replacement parts and didn't see anything for that old stick. Oh and it would cost about 27 bucks just for the shipping ! because I'm in Canada. Maybe I can scrap the TM and use the handle on my collective ?? Maybe I'll try the pots out of the Logitech and see how it works. May have to start selling these things ! :)I'll go have a look at that link now.ThanksMike

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Yes, the footrests are molded plastic. The rotating part of the rudder is made up of four aluminum bars fashioned into a parallelogram. The footrests are bolted onto a bracket which is bolted to the ends of the long bars. I'll have to see if there's a way to get some tilting travel out of the footrests. Otherwise, I could still mount a pot to the bracket and have a small arm extent upward at the toe end of the footrest.Unfortunately, I don't know where my digital cam is right now or I'd post a photo to make that description clearer.Peter http://bfu.avsim.net/sigpics/PeterR.gifBFU Forums Moderator

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Well so far so good. Ran into some problems with my tools not being where I left them. Couldn't find a wire brush for the grinder to clean up the rust before I weld anything else together. And I didn't realize that the 3/8" thread on the tie rods is a fine thread. I don't have fine thread taps. So the holes are drilled and when they are tapped I will be able to put it together and see how it works, mechanicly speaking. I think if I do anymore it will be out of aluminium and bolted together.Here is a quick picture. The parts are not finished and are just sitting there. Mike

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Well, that's really impressive Mike. I wish I had the welding skill you have.My attempts from years back were limited to whatever I could do using just a hacksaw, jigsaw with thin metal cutting blade, and a drill. Everything was bolted or riveted together.I had to put the project aside since I needed some 1/4" thick aluminum cut in odd rounded shapes and I didn't have a band saw. Machine shops wanted several hundred dollars for the work! I'm going to have to figure out how I'm going to finish it at some point. Luckily aluminum parts don't rust.-Leo

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