Flightdecksolutions

[Guest FlyBywire09]

Does any of the products frome Flightdecksolutions.com come assembled? (i.e the Overhead panel, pedestal, aft overhead, forward instruments)i mean are they just the panels or are they assembled with buttons, switches and so on??? ALso how would i hook up a complete overhead panel or or pedestal to my FS2002 to make it work properly and completely?One more thing... Whats a better thing to do? Buy rudder pedals or make them? I know it depends on budget but i dont have a lot of time so what would be more economical?Thanks all you guys have all been great help to me :)

[Guest Ramsberg]

In a hurry, huh?No, i dont think they preassemble the panels. Not sure thou, but thay dont say that they do anywhere on their page.Sounds like you really want buy a complete working sim or have someone build the simulator for you. To match your questions on a big view, I decided to do a quick approximation of the budget for a fully feathered 737 flighdeck:(You can also look at it as my wishlist to Santa d:-D)Flightdecksolutions panels $2800epic from R&R $2000vdbroeck.net 2x yoke $1600vdbroeck.net Throttle quad $2500shipping $150Project magenta glass cockpit $500 (dual cdus :-))Structural work in wood and plywood $500Projector (only one calculated you should have 3 for front, 45 deg left and right) $20005 PCs at different performance (middle price calculated) 5x$500= $2500Cant thing of anything else right now... Additions anyone?The sum is.... $14550, no work included, no rudders either, seats not included because i couldn't ind a price for them. With this, wou should be able to start building your sim. But its a lot of work. If you are in a hurry, hire someone to build it for you.Rudder pedals: I havent seen 737 dual-working pedals, so Im making my own. Not only because noone sells them, because if they did, i couldn't afford them :-)Slow down, and tell us what your goal is, timeplan and budget restrictions, so we know which avices to give.Cheers!/ Olle Ramsberg

[Garys]

I think the new signature series from FDS may be fully populated with switches etc but Im not 100% sure. I remember reading something about it sometime ago but I might be thinking of something else.As for the Rudder pedals Flight link have released there jet pedals based on the requirements of Boeing. These sound great but do come at a price. www.flightlink.com Definately something I will be adding to my setup if my homemade attempt isnt up to scratch.Gaz

[Guest mmorrell]

The guys at FDS are pretty accomidating - I would say that you should pop them off an email and ask them what your options are.Best Regards - Mitch

[Guest AirPanther]

When I've ordered from FDS, some of the more pricey units are assembled. The rest have mostly been panels only.However, AGT has new "multi-layer" panels that are fully assembled with all hardware already mounted. I really like them! Plus, the sides are painted and all mounting screws are included. They aren't pictured on their web site though, so you have to ask by special request. They can send photos. The new panels are basically turnkey apon arrival (except electronics). Great stuff and not that expensive!Roberthttp://The777Project.com

[Guest mmorrell]

Hmmm... I'm not familiar with AGT's stuff - but at $630.00 for the MIP and Pedestal set without hardware it seems to me that the price point is a little steeper than the FDS Nova panels. For $100 more you can get all that plus the complete glareshield kit. FDS offers a more complete line (thier overheads are AWESOME!) and, in my opinion, they offer more flexibility overall. You can pick up complete lots of toggle switches, rotaries, pots and other stuff on Ebay at great prices to populate the panels, many from real aircraft. This can save you significant money, and your time is not spent so much on mounting hardware, but rather on wiring and interfacing, which you have to do regardless unless you have a REALLY big budget :-)Robert - the FDS CDU you built for me is a piece of work in itself, and from what I can see AGT does not offer a similar unit(?)I admit that I have limited experience with panels - (been building a sim for a couple of years, but the FDS panels for my King Air are the first commercial panels I have worked with), but I have to say that their quality and technical support are really good.I draw the line at building rudder pedals, yokes and throttles - too many moving parts for me! (Oh yeah - and CDU's - ha!) But I think that paying double for your panels to have them populated with switches is squandering your money, as you will still have to take the time to get them wired up and talking to the sim software.Either way, my suggestion is to start with the MIP of your choice, a yoke, throttle and pedals. Get flying and then build out from there - a modular approach helps spread out the cost and you can have fun in the process! (Now if I could only take my own advice...). I started with a few hundred bucks and am well on my way to building a fairly high fidelity sim.Depending on how involved you want to get and how much space you have, a viable option for you might be the Flight Centers from FDS which can put a cockpit on your desktop, or you can build a base out for them... check them out. I saw them at the AVSIM conference and they really are nice.Just my humble (and long winded) opinion...Best Regards -Mitch

[Guest AirPanther]

Mitch is right, however, let me bring forth a few more points.BOTH companies have great products, however, FDS is typically cheaper because they ship out raw panels only. It actually saves you money, but requires a lot of time to paint and assemble.AGT on the other hand, paints the sides for you, they add all necessary mounting screws (also paint matched), and they can ship completely populated as an option. Plus, their panels aren't as flimsy and the lettering is more legible.FDS also has lines of hardware that are more expensive and are of excellent quality. They require some work, but not as much. But they are a lot more expensive (though worth it).>> Robert - the FDS CDU you built for me is a piece of work in itself, and from what I can see AGT does not offer a similar unit(?)Keep in mind that AGT sales a lot of stuff that FDS doesn't. For instance, AGT made beautiful A320 and A340 throttles years back. FDS is just getting around to that. AGT also has engine fire handles, which FDS is just getting to. Both companies focus on their own areas, which is why it can be helpful to have a relationship with both companies.>> Either way, my suggestion is to start with the MIP of your choice, a yoke, throttle and pedals. Get flying and then build out from thereBest advice of all time! It took me 5 years to figure that out .I am indeed a proponent of both companies. I don't specifically favor either one, so I speak purely from my experience using their hardware. I have spent thousands of dollars with both companies, so I am offering my opinion from my personal experience.Which company is better... that's like asking which is better, Toyota or Honda. It depends on your specific requirements, personal preference and/or how much time and money you want to invest into your project.

[fdspcos]

< message removed by request of Peter Cos - Ken Salter Forum Admin >

[Guest mondriver]

man...... you are pi**ed !!Nothing like a good bit of competition to stir things up.For what it's worth....I read all of Rob's posts, and didn't feel he was "slamming" FDS at all. Just simply giving an objective alternative view, based on his own personal experiences.I have seen the products he is describing with AGT, and I have also seen FDS products...."in the flesh"I would personally go for the FDS product as I think it has the edge on the realism. But that's my opinion.Will there be an AGT guy post here now to say he is disappointed in my post then....I think notI think we are all capable of deciding for ourselves what is good, and what isn't. I think a slight over reaction on your part here Mr Cos !

[Guest AirPanther]

Peter...I have no problem with you "clarifying" what you consider is inaccurate, but apparently you missed the statment, "I SPEAK FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE!" I have invested in virtually every applicable panel series you have created, and I have been satisfied with everything. But there has always been room for improvement. This was not meant to be a slanderous thread, this was a COMPARISON!Please don't hold me accountable for something you changed a week ago. I have FDS and AGT panels sitting side by side. If you have upgraded something in your panels, that's great! But just like FDS... AGT, CSI, CFI, and the new Flight Deck Technology (http://flightdecktechnology.com/), all need people to talk about the services they have to offer. If I didn't mention AGTs new panels, people wouldn't even know they exist and people would believe you were the only person in the world with that technology. And that's not fair.-----------------Robert States:"BOTH companies have great products, however, FDS is typically cheaper because they ship out raw panels only."Cos replies:"This is completely FALSE."Robert Defends:EVERY panel I have EVER received from FDS has been panel only, unpainted. That's how it's been for YEARS ordering from you. If you offer hardware/painting now, I am proud of you! I may even buy from you (if you're not too pi$$ed off to deal with me). But those are recent changes.-----------------Cos states:"PAINT.. False. Our new ELITE PANELS are painted on the sides... You rushed me into making a customn B777 DSP Panel for your sim...Robert responds:If you didn't have time to paint, why not say, "Hey Rob, I didn't paint or attatch the panels, to get it to you faster."?? Secondly, I was talking about the NOVA panels. That's why I made the statement, "FDS also has lines of hardware that are more expensive and are of excellent quality." To make it clear that I am comparing only the less expensive panels. Geezz!-----------------Robert States:"Plus, AGT's panels aren't as flimsy and the lettering is more legible."Cos responds:"This boggles my mind that you would make this statment and use that word."Robert responds:I'm holding the NOVA panel in one hand and the AGT panel in the other . Believe it or not, it's true :-)-----------------Cos states:"1) When I started FDS is was after dozens of builders askedme to make panels for them. Why? aSk around..."Robert rebuts:Don't forget, I WAS THERE BEFORE DAY 1 TESTING!!!!!!!! I AM ONE OF THE REASONS YOUR PANELS ARE SO REALISTIC!!! I was there when it was just "Kits by Peter Cos," made from wood and stick on graphics! You have forgotten that Peter. In the recent past, you have become so obsessed with this thing, that you forgot who helped you get there. I've got FDS hardware piled up in the closet that I've proudly purchased, and retired. I have ALWAYS been recipient of Serial numbers 1 and 2, and have sent you valuable feedback.-----------------Cos states:"2) Thickness. FDS was the innovator of multi-layer panels... Not top mounted."Robert responds:I think Boeing, Gables, Rockwell, etc, would be very interested to know that :-)-----------------Cos states:"4) Letter More legible. Ridiculous.. Does not even make any sense. Illogical. think about it. "Robert Responds:Better lettering... only if you're talking ELITE. I think ELITE is AWESOME! But I AM TALKING ABOUT THE INEXPENSIVE STUFF!!! You keep trying to compare ELITE to the standard stuff. That's like me comparing your ELITE panels with lightplates from Gables Engineering. Do your panels have +5vdc connectors with built in LEDs? And are the LEDs properly spaced and light balanced? I would think your panels are also not MIL-SPEC certified right? Sounds crazy right? But that's the same comparison you keep making with the less expensive panels. Chill out man!-----------------Robert States:"FDS also has lines of hardware that are more expensive and are of excellent quality."Cos Responds:"I have no idea what this means. Sorry. Not sure what is moreexpensive at all here."Robert rebuts:NOW I'm talking about ELITE !-----------------Robert States:"Keep in mind that AGT sales a lot of stuff that FDS doesn't.Cos responds:"Please go to the page and count all the items that we have developed. If anything FDS has been about innovation."Robert Rebuts:You act like your competitors are sitting on their hands. I only wish I could tell you what they are up to... It would blow your mind. However, I certainly respect "disclosure" and I have NEVER shared any of your ideas with anyone else.-----------------Cos states:"We talk to the builders constantly. We have a very good ideaof what they are after and what sort of pricie/budget is realistic."Robert responds:So does AGT! Try getting through their phone line. Most days they are on the phone for HOURS talking with builders. You act like AGT is some huge corporation... It's a two man show. They are just as eager to deal with builders as you are.-----------------Robert States:"I am indeed a proponent of both companies."Cos Responds:"Thats great. Then all I ask is take your Commercialism or the "Sales Agent Speak" out of this forum."Robert responds:I believe that's where I lost you in the beginning. I am not speaking as an agent. I am speaking as a fellow builder. I am sharing my personal experiences with other builders so they don't waste thousands of dollars on "prototypes" like I have.-----------------Cos states:"These builders need a place where they can talk and share."Robert responds:"these builders," WOW!! I REALLY have to hold my tongue on this one!!! I'd get kicked out of this forum if I responded how I wanted to on that one...-----------------Cos states:"In the future if you want to promote a product do so withoutslamming another company with "half Truths"Robert responds:Why in the world would I slam FDS after investing so many years into your products. For you to respond with "Updated information" is fine. My information is from years or experience. You could have politely said, "Thanks Robert, but there are a few things that have changed."We joined this hobby at the same time, and I have always called you brother. Regardless of these "differences" I still call you brother. I don't know what has happened to you. And it's not just me that's seen the drastic change.----------------New statement:You talk about me supporting AGT... well what's up with your new SystemWare with HCSDT!!!!! I have always written FREE software for builders. Then all of a sudden, you hire a team to write IDENTICAL software that you charge for. Do you know how UPSET I was when you announced that???? Why not send me info and help me continue my efforts?? Instead, you become my direct competitor after all my years supporting you. Then you got flaming mad when I resumed development. You of all people should have been the first person to install the Airbus software. Keeping in mind that this was when we were on the best of terms. And even STILL I have ordered from you since that incident.This is not the first time you have responded to me like this. When I posted that I wanted to use real lightplates in my sim... you responded as if it was a crime against man. THEN, I get another flaming call when I resumed development of my software saying, "Just leave the Airbus alone and develop something else." Others have received similar letters/calls. Why are you so hostile man? We are the people trying to support you.----------------Conclusion:I will continue to support FDS, but I RESERVE THE RIGHT to speak from my personal experiences as a builder. Take Enrico Schiratti for instance. He links to his competitors web sites. That's the kind of confidence he has in his products. He and I may eventually become competitors, but we still keep a professional friendship. I would like to keep dealing with you and FDS, but not if you are going to keep exploding like this...Robert

[Guest AirPanther]

Oops, missed one...>>> "I can paint every single panels edge but the cost and time would make that pretty undesirable trust me.. "AGT does that too my friend! And so you don't think I'm picking on ya, here's a pic of their stuff. They even include imitation DZUS fasteners (not shown). I don't mean to seem like a salesman, but you should understand you are not the only one out there being creative. You have great products, but so do other people.http://home.att.net/~sfinger/custom14.jpgThe equivalent of your NOVA panels (as shipped)

[Guest mmorrell]

Peter/Robert... Enough! This whole thread really went right in the toilet. You're both pros and looked up to by many folks in this hobby. You both get 10 demerits. Now kiss and make up.

[Guest AirPanther]

You're right Mitch. It's nothing personal! I'm prepared to shake on it :-)

[Guest Salbado]

Boys, boys, boys...These two companies are the Mercedes Benz and the BMW of panel development and manufacturing..they both have good points and not so good points. More importantly, they are both growing and enriching our hobby.My Airbus 320 simultor has the following credits (no specific order or preference) ...and I am sure I forgot some!AGTFDS Project MagentaGo-FlightCH ProductsMicrosoftBelkinHome DepotPrather A320 SystemFS NavigatorSimflyersUltimate TrafficwxREProject Opensky A320Viewsonic ProjectorsDellBarnhill BoltsMouser ElectronicsAutocraft SeatsBroadway CarpetStaplesR & R Elecronics..and many others who have escaped my memory...to name a few...and lastly, this would not have at all been the least possible without the support of my wife who witnessed me turn into a computer geek, carpenter, and electrical engineer all for the love of simlated flight...so you see it cannot be done by one company alone.

[Guest dakenskys]

Ok Guys....Not to toot my own horn, but I'll be joining all those companies out there supplying great parts very soon.Here's a sneak peek:KenDakenSkys