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Wing views: commentary

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I know you dont want this kind of thread circulating, but please, just give it a day or so, just to let a few opinions out. This is a subject I feel strongly about, so please, give it a chance :)

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>I know you dont want this kind of thread circulating, but >please, just give it a day or so, just to let a few opinions >out. This is a subject I feel strongly about, so please, >give it a chance :) Max, if you know people don't care to read this type of stuff circulating, why would you post it? I removed your first post because it was simply a long diatribe where you called people idiots and basically just made lots of derogatory remarks. We are tired of these type of posts trying to stir up things. So I have removed your post a second time. Hopefully it is clear it should stay gone. Also, please refrain from bumping your own post when it is only 5 minutes old. I tend to consider this bad form as it gives the impression that somehow you feel your post is more important than the others that post here. Thanks

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So, you like wing views?Why?When you sit in the cockpit of a DC3, do you actually LOOK out the window on approach to verify "Gear Down"?When flying in IMC, do you like to LOOK out the window to see if you are picking up ice?On the WING?When you are on downwind in the Cherokee, do you like to LOOK out the window to see when the wing passes the approach end of the runway?OK, you can't as yet see ice on the wing, but that will be soon, I presume, but if you are interested in any of these concepts, (and there are a ton more situations where one would like to see wings still firmly attached) then you are a "wing view" person.I am for wing views.BC

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I like wing views. Period. I'll llok at them when I wish, and thats the end of it. My FS experience is better with wing views.

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Well Max, that makes you a wing view person.Welcome to the club.Now there are two.BC

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Hey, I like Wing Views too, but I know people that don't, that doesn't make them an stupid. Each to their own I say. People shouldn't be critised for their likes or dislikes.

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This is a restart.Nobody is to be insulted here. You either like wing views or not.It is not a question as to who is better or not, it's a simple question. Do you like wing views or not?Disregard any previous snippy comments and let us stick to the question.Do people like wing views or not?Would the availability of wing views make a model more desireable or less so.Developers spend a LOT of time making their models, they need to know if they are wasting time making wing views.I do not believe wing views are a waste of time.So, lets hear some comments, for and against. Give the builders something to work with.BC

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I will admit I like wing views quite a bit. It's nice to fantasize about being a pilot on the flightdeck, but it's also nice to have the option of looking over the wing while cruising on autopliot or especially using the wing view for landing replays. I have been on many commercial jets and it is this view that I remember most as I'm not a real pilot nor have I had the opportunity to sit in the jump seat of the flightdeck during a flight or landing, so really it's this view that brings back the memories for all the flights I've taken to those warm sunny destinations during the cold Canadian winters.It's just a matter of preference to the individual, with neither person being right or wrong, but rather having fun with their hobby.Regards,Van LatendresseYeoDesigns

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if we're going to have wing views then lets have toilet views too, it adds to the realism even more! heck, even include the option to join the mile high club!

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I thought you were supposed to be sim pilots, wannabees fufilling your dream ?If you want wing views, this makes you a passenger surely ? There is a point to be made or sacrificed here that you cant have your cake and eat it. Wing views are created at the sacrifice of virtual cockpits, it is possible for the user to change his view point to accomadate, this in turn makes forword view which is normally required for landing somewhat screwed up.You need to make your minds up, are you a simmer or a passenger ? It does not happen in the real world, your either one or the other. The more I think about this, what a sad bunch to get off on a flap retracting. If you want both stick to the defualt Cessna, with this you can have both in virtual view, but thats not enough is it ?The couch is to the left if you'd like to lay down and tell me all about it.George

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Actually it's nice to be both a simmer and passenger...thats the beauty of FS2002 and it's possible for a designer to create a model with a VC and clone the wings for the wing view. It's a have your cake and eat it too scenerio and more bang for the buck when it's payware, again it's all about personal preference. If the die hard simmers only want the VC then so be it, but what is life without choices? There's plenty of aircraft models out there with all the features that any simming individual may desire.Regards,Van LatendresseYeoDesigns Panel/FDE designer

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No we don't as we offer freeware aircraft and spend enough hours with our backs to our families as it is, but for payware designers or perhaps a freeware site that have a much larger group, then it is possible. Most simmers have no idea how much time is spent creating one model and it is done whenever we have the spare time and that in turn takes away from time spent with our families. I have been reading so many various forums on every topic imagineable lately and it always seems people are never satisfied with most add-ons, payware and freeware alike and the majority are complaints or criticisms from people that haven't done so much as a re-paint themselves. Most people that do FS add-ons, whether it be a model, panel, re-paint, FDE, etc. started doing it because they wanted to contibute to the simming comunity in some way. If fellow simmers had not taken an interest in designing, than all these wonderful goodies that we all enjoy would not exist and we would be flying with the MSFS default everything.Regards,Van LatendresseYeoDesigns Panel/FDE designer

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I can't see what all the fuss is about!What on earth can be wrong with people wanting to have a view of the aircraft wing? Aside from the fact that as has already been mentioned above, there are circumstances where being able to see the wing is actually desirable. Not to mention that it can sometimes make a nice change to sit there and watch the flaps being deployed - only to be done whilst the AP is handling the approach of course :-)All the best,http://www.blandreynolds.btinternet.co.uk/DF_PG_sm.gif

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Ho hum, here we go again.I take it you found my reply pedantic so I'll explain so you understand.You said "and it's possible for a designer to create a model with a VC and clone the wings for the wing view." My reply you know. Then you go off on a trommy saying we only do freeware. Then you imply you would expect it from payware and LARGER freeware groups. Sorry I dont understand the reasoning behind this. If your spending too many hours with your back to your family, make a choice, it's simple. I'm not too sure where your coming from that others do it as they wanted to contribute, sure a very few, but as soon as moneys mentioned 99.9% would be off like a shot to payware heaven. (take a look around, most commercials started as freeware designers). I remember one quote which I will never forget from a freeware designer, it was "I never set out to be an icon", I reached for the bucket at that one and swore I would never D/L or if he went commercial use his stuff again. Sorry Van, the choice you make is yours and yours alone. Dont expect me to feel sorry for you or feel guilty for your choices. As I said, the couch is to the left if you'd like to tell me all about it.George

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Back to the point. I have had the chance to sit in the jump seat of an MD80 for a complete flight from gate to gate. Yes, it is a true delight to see all the real gauges, needles and screens at work. To discuss with the crew members the way things work and what to do if they don't. But after 40 min or so, we are all trying to get a peak out the scarse cockpit glass since I have already taught them everything I know about an art they weren't aware off: the art of non FMC flying and what glideslopes are there for. We just don't have anything else to talk about. Believe me, once things are set up and the a/p is in charge, what a real life pilot really enjoys is a view out the window. They would give an eye just to be able to spend some time on a passenger seat staring at the majestic yet not intrusive wing, and the wide blue yonder. I mean, has anybody ever seen a pilot off duty flying in the cabin? They never look out the window on takeoff or landing but just watch them while cruising, cheek firmly glued to the plastic window all the way. I guess that's why we don't get paid and they do. We have the enormous priviledge of enjoying both worlds. They don't. My thanks to all the freeware developers for this.Cheers,Mauricio

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>>You need to make your minds up, are you a simmer or a >passenger ? It does not happen in the real world, your >either one or the other. The more I think about this, what a >sad bunch to get off on a flap retracting. I have a real airplane, in which you DO need to look over the wing at the flap deployment or retraction. It's the only way you'll know the settings.I also have a WWII B-29 training film, in which observers (gunners, navigator,etc.) would look out over the wing to confirm flap deployment and retraction.As to whether sim designers use wing views or not, is their business, as many views could be complicated. But in many cases, wing and flap views are realistic for REAL pilots!L.Adamson

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Not in heavys, as I said you want the best of both worlds ? Fly a Cessna.

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>Not in heavys, as I said you want the best of both worlds ? >Fly a Cessna. Cessna's are boring....... :)Only good for BFR's, but wouldn't mind a nice Cessna 185 taildragger for mountain flying though! And Cessna Citation X would be my ultimate "real" machine!!!BTW--- The simulated RealAir Marchetti 260 has a nice animated wing view to look over while doing aerobatics. I forgot to mention that wing views were essential in doing real life aerobatic instruction in the Pitt's S2B.And while I'm at it, I agree that wing views are not essential for piloting a heavy, but I sure DO like highly animated FLAP/GEAR sequences for the simulation. I like taking off in spot view to watch the flap & gear retraction. I've spent many years involved with building real aircraft and have a great interest in the mechanics of them, which is probably the reason I feel the way I do. :) L.Adamson

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George....What has given you the self appointed right to define the use of FS. You perpetuate several myths about FS:Truths:-FS is a FLIGHT simulator, not a flying simulator. Enjoying the ride from a pax perspective is just as much a reason for owning the sim as cockpit drill. Sorry you don't seem to believe this and want to knock us. It's why I respect your opinion less and less these days. I already mentioned my opinion of max in the now deleted thread, and you had a chance to say--"way to go". But you chose to go one rung lower, by referring to us as a "sad bunch"...-Second truth. Virtual cockpits and wing views can and do coexist. Yet those who want to make this out to be some type of anti simming issue cry fire, where there is none. If you don't want wing views, adjust the eyepoint the way you want it. Actually, every a/c I've ever downloaded has had the eyepoint set in the cockpit. It's up to the simmer to make the change.-I would argue I am among the best sim pilots here. Don't put me behind the controls of a real A/C though...last time I did that was 'bout 20 years ago. What does that mixture control do again? More Scotch?Max's original thread was rude, and so is your response. If you don't want to enjoy wing views, you don't have to. But don't feed potential developers this b.s. That's what it is, and IMHO, you've gone way over the line. Since you consider us "a sad bunch" for enjoying such views, I consider this the end of my discussion with you. If anyone here can show me the disclaimer from MS, saying that FS is for pilots only AND that pax flying is verboten....I'll stand with my tail between my legs. But personally, I feel those debating against this issue need to get a life, and need to quit using people like max as an example to throw some shots at us, to somehow posture yourselves as superior simming "pilots". I suspect I have more real stick time, even though only a student, than many of you.

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There is nothing stopping an A/C designer from including a model with a v/c, and a model with virtual wings when it comes to heavy jets. The virtual wings are a heck of a lot easier than the VC to add, and the model can be selected via the aircraft.cfg.

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Well put JohnCi!Like I've said...it's not about right or wrong, but rather having fun with ones hobby plain and simple.Van LatendresseYeoDesigns Panel/FDE designer

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Wing views are not at the expense of VC's! In fact, I have the Posky CRJ, and with a quick mod to the panel.cfg, I can zoom to the wing view from the VC with one touch of a button! The same applies to the Ariane 737, A340-600. So, my perspective in the cockpits is where it should be, and with one button, I am over the wing. Simple!Here is what I have in the panel.cfg of my CRJ:[Views]VIEW_FORWARD_ZOOM=1.0 VIEW_FORWARD_WINDOWS=MAIN_PANEL,50VIEW_FORWARD_DIR=9.2, 0.0, 0.0VIEW_REAR_RIGHT_UP_DIR=3.0, 0.0, 90VIEW_REAR_RIGHT_UP_EYE=-0.6, -0.30,-11.0 // Adjust last value to move fore and aftNow, all you need to do is assign a button on you're joystick (or a key on the keyboard) to REAR_RIGHT_UP view, and thats it!Use FSUIPC to do this.SO, you CAN have cockpit view, AND passenger view at once! Now, could all planes have wing and VC views now? Jees, I'm tired of aregueing!

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The A340-600 and Ariane 737 do not have VC's. You can do the trick you mention with the 2-d cockpit certainly, but VC's are as important to some as wing views. There is a finite limit to the size of the aircraft involved in order to support both, I think. The recent GMAX Gulfstream is right about the limit, if I'm not mistaken. The CRJ should be right at the limit as well. With aircraft larger than that, I believe there are issues with GMAX and FSDS where only one or the other will display. Again, we're talking about VC's, not 2-d cockpits.However, my point in an earlier post: There's nothing to prevent an A/C designer from creating two aircraft configurations--one with a V/C and one with dynamic wings. FS2002 supports this easily. Only two .mdl files would be required. Not two sets of textures. And before an A/C designer quibbles with this, it is not "twice as much work". The wing views are almost a gimme, since most of the parts involved can be cloned.Again I'll echo what I did yesterday Max.... For the majority of those on this board, this is not an "us vs. them" issue. When someone knocks us for it, it isn't a great idea to respond at the same level. Most people agree that both VC's and Virtual Wing views add to the experience of flight. I wouldn't have bought the DF Cardinal without both, nor the Flight 1 421. The Ariane model was one of the first A/C I ever bought just for the eye candy. Until FFG releases their GMAX 737 NG, which will have virtual wing views, only the POSKY 747 and CRJ come close in the airliner segment to Ariane's replication of passenger views.Someone asked the question, what's so important about watching flaps move? I've logged over 1 million miles as a pax. I'm considering a career change, which will take me back to full time travel (I'm down to 1,2 trips a quarter now). Over the 13 years I've traveled for business, and the 25 years before that where I traveled for pleasure, I've fallen in love with the beauty of manned flight. Part of that beauty--being seated behind the wing, watching the deft hands of the pilot (or deft skill of the AP) as they are reflected in the movement of the ailerons against the chop. I used to come home from my trips and tell my wife that I was "cloud hopping." During the AZ monsoons, flying is exactly that, as pilots weave in and out of the cells that like to line Sky Harbor in the afternoon and evening.Every phase of flight...flap deployment, gear deployment, spoilers, reversers....it's a sight I marvel at, how all these things work in concert.I haven't gotten around to it, but I have a great video of a 737-300 takeoff I took back in '87 that I'll upload. It's right around 5 megs, and I guess it somes up my love of flight, as well as flying.-John

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