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You are quite right! There is nowhere for unhappy customers to voice their opinion in situations like these :-roll. I don't buy online products anymore, thats my solution! The whole system is capitalist: maximising sales by stifling any potentially damaging complaints, which could put future buyers off. It may work for the companies, but it doesn't work for the unlucky buggers who have issues galore!I'm not a Marxist, but capitalism has major flaws in many areas. Most people think that it's the only way to live, but it screws the poor whilst the rich get richer!Show me a fan of capitalism, and I'll show you a greedy S.O.B. :-lol

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It's a difficult one to answer, however I would have thought you have a course of redress through your credit card company or who ever is handling the merchant account.If you have a developer who does not care, I think you should be entitled after exhausting all known routes to inform others, simply put, they do not deserve yours or mine's business. I've noticed a few post's of people complaining about NON released software, then screaming blue murder when there is a fault. The question then is who's at fault ? I can understand the developer wanting to take advantage of the flurry of activity, perhaps they should learn to be prudent in whipping up the storm until such time that the product is in fact ready.On the other hand, if the buyers are putting developers under intense pressure to release as I have seen, Let the buyer beware.In respect of PSS, sure they made mistakes early on, the mistake they made was trying to appease everbody, this, you simply cannot do.Some of the comments made just recently, frankly did not deserve reply as they were downright rude and insulting, would you be prepared to answer such things ? Is it censorship to remove such things, I dont think so. It's a good job it was Graham replying to some and not me, theres a chap with patience, but it only goes so far.I've complained on numerous occassions to the ombudsman and if warranted he has agreed there was no reason for threads to be locked or removed,nothing else has happened but at least I got an ackowledgement, remember Avsim is 24-7, run by individuals at different times of the day,in different continents, as a consequence some moderators suffer kneejerk reactions all to frequently at times (my opinion)However I feel the last few days have been justified.Sorry if this is not what you wanted to read.George

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Any web site that carries advertising should be regarded as suspect when it claims to represent the consumer. But a web site that carries such advertising clearly marked, like this one, is laying its cards on the table for all to see. So from there its down to the visitor to take care. Reviews are a different matter as you can never be sure of the potential bias of the reviewer. But isnt that the same of any writing, anywhere?I know I don't believe everything I read. Or maybe there are lots of "Great Satans" in the world!Chas

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I don't think that the purpose of "Support Forums" is for constant snivelling, complaining or bashing!I have always seen people get help when they ask for it, in a civilized manner.As you have stated this is a private endeavour, run by a private individual. We are here at his will, like guests in a private residence. If people came to my house and start "complaining" about the way I live, I would promptly show them the door!Some of the responses in this thread show the mentality of certain people and their agendas. Pete S

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>As you have stated this is a private endeavour, run by a >private individual. We are here at his will, like guests in >a private residence. >If people came to my house and start "complaining" about the >way I live, I would promptly show them the door! O.K. But this was not my question. My question was: WHERE can I complain if it is necessary to do this publicly for "greater impact"...maybe someone should start a "Flightsim Complaints Website"?I

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what exactly is your complaint ? Be polite and I'm sure it wont be removed.George

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That's pretty much the main reason I don't read the PSS forum anymore.I'm sure their intent it to keep things fairly calm over direct censorship. But the result still ends up being a removal of most criticism constructive or otherwise.Then if you post on the main FS forum the thread is locked and you are told the PSS forum is a more appropriate place.So basically there is no outlet for any criticism of PSS at avsim.They may say the reason is to focus on support, maybe so but glowing compliments that have nothing to do with support some how manage to stay on the forum.So since I can't see both positive and negative viewpoints I just don't read the PSS forum at all.Regards.Ernie.

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I can't say that I have seen any censorship on here (except my original username ;))What becomes really annoying is the use of this forum to vent anger at certain products. What is the purpose of this forum? To *discuss* various aspects of Flight Sim and to request and receive help on Flight Sim.Example:Topic: Problem with XYZI get the following with XYZ. I have tried blah blah. Anyone else see the same thing. Etc.This produces a positive response, and if read by the authors they are likely to respond positively too.Example:Topic: Product XYZ sucksXYZ really sucks. It's a disgrace! I've been ripped off! We should all gang up and put these guys out of business! Etc Etc.Response is entirely negative. Lots of people chime in with 'me too' sentiments. We never get to grips with what exactly is wrong with the product. Anyone who may disagree gets shouted down. Product Authors' response is likely to be defensive rather than helpful.I know what I'd rather see.

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>>So since I can't see both positive and negative viewpoints I >just don't read the PSS forum at all. >>Same thing happens with others, such as Dreamfleet and FSD!I wouldn't single out PSS.While some complaints are justified, much of it is just "drivel" of why isn't my $30.00 sim plane just like the REAL one! Not only that, many complaints are erroneous to start with. Just like blaming MSFS when all ILS's don't lead straight to the runway, when in fact, some are offset.L.Adamson

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"maybe someone should start a "Flightsim Complaints Website"?""someone"? I had to laugh out loud when I read that one! Would it not be better if you created, maintained, managed, and financed your own website and encouraged us to visit to bring these capitalistic rip-off companies in line with our demands?Please do not ask someone else to do something for you that you should do for yourself, unless you want to play by their rules

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>BTW, you mentioned something about this great country, stars >and stripes, bleeding and all that stuff in your last >post

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>"maybe someone should start a "Flightsim Complaints >Website"?" >>"someone"? I had to laugh out loud when I read that >one! Would it not be better if you created, >maintained, managed, and financed your own website and >encouraged us to visit to bring these capitalistic rip-off >companies in line with our demands? >>Please do not ask someone else to do something for you that >you should do for yourself, unless you want to play by >their rules

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>what exactly is your complaint ? Be polite and I'm sure it >wont be removed. That was more of a "principal question". No immediate problem at the moment. I was a "victim" of "Captain Sim" but have now asked for a refund - so there will be no further problems hopefully.

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It all depends on "how" you complain! It seems to me that if you have a complaint about a product you would want to do it directly with the source, and not get "everyone" involved. I see plenty of complaints on PSS, Dreamfleet, Flight 1, FSD etc... sites without them being removed, so there must be a way to lodge complaints? After all isn't bringing up a particular problem a form of complaint? If the problem is real and reasonable, it will usually get a positive response from someone.There is also the E-Mail route.Pete SPS. Your complaint about not being able to complain is still here, nobody pulled it! :-)

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Hi Vortex,Is this a solution looking for a problem?I cannot recall many times (I been visiting here since the Pro-Pilot wars of the 90's) when I have seen a post removed simply because it contained a well written complaint. George said it quite clearly. A courteous and understandable post will almost always get a like kind response.The man with the big A (referring to the capital letter if your last name sir), has set rules that keep this forum nicely insulated from the news group fray. It is certainly not perfect, as I have had my ox was gored a time or two. :)Your point is well taken relative to the customer service aspect of some payware companies. Remember, we are dealing directly with the principals of these small enterprises and not all brillant people are great working with customers. On balance, I feel the add-ons we are getting today are far superior to those 2 years ago. (with exception of PIC which is STILL ahead of its time). The raising of the bar is do to capitalism in my opinion. Even capitalist pigs have to eat. :)Have fun!BobP :)

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We answer every single enquiry and/or problem e-mail within 12 hours and most get answered within 5 hours. We stick with our customers to the bitter end in the rare instance that they have install problems. If those problems are insurmountable (again very rare, and usually due not to our product but the purchaser's graphics card or other weak link in their system's chain), we always offer a refund.We do not see the need for a "support" forum since we always deal with any problems immediately and personally. Forums often create extra work for developers which would otherwise be better spent addressing specific purchasers' problems directly. The only problem I recall with a small minority of our purchasers are those to whom we offered assistance but they have not acknowledged or replied back to us!Rob YoungRealAir Simulations

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>Hi Vortex, >>On balance, I feel the add-ons we are getting today are far >superior to those 2 years ago. (with exception of PIC which >is STILL ahead of its time). The raising of the bar is do to >capitalism in my opinion. Even capitalist pigs have to eat. >:) I guess you, too, mix me up with another person. I did NOT write anything about capitalism! Obviously a lot of people think if you complain about something you have to be a communist :-)))Very strange!

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Sounds very good. I should buy from RealAir Simulations next time :-)Are you planning to release an airliner in the near future?

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>>PS. Your complaint about not being able to complain >is still here, nobody pulled it! :-) No wonder - it does not hurt anybody :-)

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Those who yell the loudest about the supposed lack of "freedom of speach" here are frequently those that desire to, or accually do succeed, in abusing it.Read our Terms of Use. In it, you will find this:"Please also understand that THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS FREEDOM OF SPEECH IN A PRIVATELY OWNED AND OPERATED FORUM. If you believe that you should have unfettered freedom of speach without equal responsibility for its use, then the AVSIM forums are not for you."You agreed to that BEFORE you applied for access here. In completing the registration process, you AFFIRMATIVELY agree to that and other terms, such as:"User Conduct: (A) The User shall use AVSIM Online's WEB Site and System (here-in-after known as the System) for lawful purposes only. User shall not post or transmit through the System any material which violates or infringes in any way upon the rights of others, which is unlawful, threatening, abusive, defamatory, invasive of privacy or publicity rights, vulgar, obscene, profane or otherwise objectionable, which encourages conduct that would constitute a criminal offense, give rise to civil liability or otherwise violate any law, or which, without AVSIM Online's express prior approval, contains advertising or any solicitation with respect to products or services except as may be allowed for within the guidelines set forth for the System. Any conduct by a User that in AVSIM Online's discretion restricts or inhibits any other User from using or enjoying the System will not be permitted. User shall not use the System to advertise or perform any commercial solicitation (except as otherwise noted), including, but not limited to, the solicitation of users to become subscribers of other on-line information services competitive with the System. "You call it censorship.. We call it mutual respect, adult discourse and a friendly community. Violate any of those, and your message will be removed and failing your notice of that, you may well end up gone too.Now, to your point about complaints... We see, allow, and encourage interaction with developers on the AVSIM forums. We sponsor and support developers, both pay and free, here. We do not unilaterally or capriciously remove posts that are "complaints". What we DO REMOVE are childish rants that are posted for no better reason than to abuse the developer (again, freeware or payware). We also remove messages, which in our humble opinion, are from folks with agendas to fulfill. You might not believe this, but there are those who do publicly and continually lamblast competitors or have their minions do so for them. So, complaints are welcome; as long as they are mature, constructive and objective. Rants will get your message deleted; continued rants will cause us to show you the "door" so to speak.

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