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briansommers

Is it only with me that runways don

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On approach, with insignificant or no side winds to blow me off course, I see the runway dead ahead and lined up. I

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I was going to say just as in real life nothing remains static but you dis-armed me when you said in real life you would just line up and leave it until the roll-out.I was pretty surprised and did not realize you could actually do that except under Extreme Calm.Wow, I learned something.That's why I keep coming back.

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Yep, Greg, you've put it in a nutshell......... "In extreme calm"It's an exaggeration to say she'd just fly in with no input from either the rudder or by banking but with FS2002 with all the weather cleared the difference is marked.It's much, much easier in the real thing.That's why I'm wondering if it's a problem inherent in FS2002?

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You're right. I experience the same thing all the time. It IS much easier in the real thing. I suspect that many folks aren't as concerned with touching down on the centerline as you and I and other "serious" simmers are. That's probably why it hasn't been addressed more in the forums. Either that or there's just nothing that can be done about it.

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I figured it was as "squirrely" in real life with regard to small inputs down the approach to keep her lined up.Seems pretty minor at least on my system. Just a few banks and a final kick of the rudder keeps me down the centerline in FS2002.

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It depends on what you're flying too. It is minor if you fly a small GA type but not so minor with the jets. Especially the big ones.

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Cliff, I had to think about this one for a minute or two. I do think you're right that FS2002 goes all over the place on final approach. It is extremely hard to line up perfectly with the centerline. I still fly the real thing and the experience is much different than in this sim in many aspects. But never do I completely relax on final and it does take a bit of adjustment all the way down to the flare and landing roll. I receive the NTSB reports monthly and it is full of stories about pilots who let things get out of hand just before, during, or after landing. I also think that the sim is too forgiving on botched landings.Regards,

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I agree, JeffIn fact what prompted me to raise the question was my difficulty in lining up the new 727 from Captain Sim. A lovely aircraft, it flies beautifully but trying to bring her onto runway 19L at San Francisco detracts from the feeling of realism that makes this hobby so enjoyable.

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I've wondered the same thing about Microsoft's aircraft crash tolerances at the "realistic" settings. As a matter of fact, I've tried to tip a wing into the runway during touchdown to see how the sim would handle it.I'm sure if I'd do that in real life I wouldn't be sitting here typing right now.Good messageboard and good topics guys!

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Of course you're right Ken. It certainly DOES "take a bit of adjustment all the way down to the flare and landing roll". And, Steve, I agree too with your crash tolerance remarks. That too would be a natural for improvement in FS2004.With FS2004 presumably in the melting pot I'm wondering whether there's a way we can be sure that the Microsoft team knows our wish lists?Could we be sure that they would pick it up in this Forum if we opened a string on the subject?

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WOW! And I thought it was me. I have never been able to line up exactly on the center line and stay lined up. I always get a little drift. I thought that it was because I didn't have enough experience (I have about 500 hours in g/a aircraft) doing landings that I was drifting. :-wave Ron from behind the Cheddar Curtain. :-wave

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For me, the airplane has a lot to do with it. The many different perspectives provided by our designers can be very confusing, aircraft handling varies and the simulator doesn't seem to do a good job at modelling the inertia of a large airplane.One thing that does help is using the "v" symbol in the windscreen, activated under the View Options menu. The jumpseat views loved by so many of our designers put the primary flight instruments so far left that it makes it very difficult to know where your plane is truly headed. My brain and eyes tend to get into conflicts and while it may look like we are crabbed at a 20 degree angle to the runway from the flight deck, a quick check of spot view shows we are pretty much straight and steady. For extreme examples, check out the freeware Dash-8 panel or the new VMAX 2D 747-200 panel (picture below) and tell me that you aren't sitting rather uncomfortably on the throttle handles instead of the pilot's cushy, sheepskin covered seat. I am at a loss to figure out how you are supposed to understand where the plane is really flying, at least from the visual cues so important to a good VFR, hand-flown approach. The Falcon 50 is also a nightmare to line up, as the crazy framework holding the windscreen panels really confounds trying to figure out where the plane's direction is heading. Bless Paul Golding for providing a true pilot's view in his wonderful 707 package and Dreamfleet for making this a cornerstone of their design approach. The new Captain Sim 727 also seems to have a fairly realistic pilot's perspective. I find this helps a lot. At least I know when it is me, who is not flying straight. With regards to handling, I can land the PIC 767 reasonably close to the centerline with some consistency. I find this plane very responsive, even at slow speeds and that seems to make things easier. And I can do it even though the plane has a jumpseat view. The Dreamfleet 737, even with it's dream view forward, is hard for me to land in anything but a dead calm. This plane is far less responsive at Vref + 5 or + 10 than the PIC 767. I wonder if the real plane is as hard to handle at low spees as the DF version. Here, at least, I know when it's my flying that is causing me to miss the runway - not the perspective confusing my small brain. And finally, I would guess that once you have a big jet lined up that the inertia of 275,000 pounds would make keeping the bird centered a whole lot easier than is modeled in FS2002. I'd love to hear more from the folks who drive these big planes for a living.Oh well, that's enough rambling. You know what they say, the way to Carnegie Hall is to practice, practice, practice. I think that is the real key here to get your brain to recognize certain patterns or views on approach with your different airplanes and to know that "oh, I'm too high, too low, too far right etc. Colin

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I am not a real life pilot BUT, many of my friends are. I have brough them home to try and fly similar aircraft on FS2002 and here are the results:1) A B737 First Officer for Untited Airlines, formerly flew a B727 for Braniff: I let him manually fly the PIC767 (KMIA, KSFO, KLAX) and he failed and crashed everytime except for one, at which time he basically crashed on the runway and ended up on the grass. This man flies a real B737 every day!2) A 62 year old Beechcraft Bonanza owner, pilot and former flight instructor; he has owned the same Bonanza for over 22 years. He flies out of Tamiami Executive Airport (KTMB) in real life. So, I let him fly Geofa's Bonanza, the default FS2002 Baron with Steve Small's air file and Flight1's Cessna C421C at his familiar KTMB FS2002 airport. He could bearly fly this things and he crashed many times. BTW, I have flown (on the right seat) with this man and he is a pro. We landed with over 10-knot cross winds on KTMB's 09L runway and he showed me how, in real life, it is a piece of cake (I witnessed that myself).3) A B767-300 United Airlines Captain who BTW once experienced engine failure taking off from London and he [uneventfully] went around, dumped fuel and landed safety back in London. Last time I saw him he was flying the JFK-LAX route -- he lives in Miami. He could not fly the FS2002 PIC767, period!4) A former DC-9 captain for a South American airline: he could not fly my Flight1 DC-9, crash crash crash.I also have to [privately and confidentially] say that none of these four real-life pilots are rocket scientists or above average super bright individuals. They are your typical average guy who have trouble even using a simple computer, I know that because I am the one they call when they have computer problems :-lolAll of them agree that flying real world aircraft (from a Beech Bonanza to a B763 heavy) is not that hard at all, and that if it was as hard as it is to fly the FS2002 aircraft, there would be thousands of casualties every day!My .02 cents,Kerke

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I suspect that most of the problems those experienced pilots had in flying FS2002 was due to the unavoidable limitations of the user interface, rather than any inherent 'hardness' of the flight models.Because of the lack of motion sense, peripheral vision, depth perception, high resolution vision, familiar control 'feel' (especially if you have a stick rather than yoke and pedals), and even such subliminal effects as wind noise, to an experienced pilot it probably feels like day one of flight training again.They would probably have equal difficulty if they tried to fly their own aircraft using a remote control stick and video camera arrangement. Try to imagine parallel parking your own car using a remote control camera and joystick.

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I cheat and switch to spot view just before I land.:)To touch on the real pilots not being able to fly the sim. I think it is a "seat of the pants thing". I know of 2 people that drove race cars and they cannot race to save their but on the computer. If they cannot feel what is going on they cannot make the right moves.

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>I suspect that most of the problems those experienced pilots >had in flying FS2002 was due to the unavoidable limitations >of the user interface, rather than any inherent 'hardness' >of the flight models. >Exactly!

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That in addition to other comments,I have had a few occasions where the aircraft seems to "yaw" heavily just before touchdown. No crosswinds either. It's usually with heavier aircraft when everything was perfectly lined up. My only option is to anticipate this and add some aileron to bank back towards the runway. Then it's either land on the dirt or go around.But this only happens occasionly.L.Adamson ---- never had to land a real airplane in the dirt, unless that's all there is!

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To add to what Leesw said:The main problem is that you cannot reproduce a 3 dimensional world on a 2 dimensional screen. The angles are never true. The 'v' axis indicator is the only way you can truly line up with the runway. Even then you will still have drift due to the joystick is not 100% true either. The other problem as Leesw indicated is that there is no 'feel' for the airplane. As pointed out in another post that real pilots cannot fly the simulator. A few years ago in an effort to develop an aviation fuel that was less flammable during a crash, a 707 was outfitted so that it could be flown by remote control. A real 707 pilot flying by remote control could not line up with the center line on the target range and crashed sideways and totally invalidated the test. The video is shown on the Discovery Channel occasionally.

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I found that staying on the centerline is a bit easier in VC view. This way you can look straight ahead at the runway without having to keep the plane's axis perfectly lined up.Stephan

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I've just tried the "V" axis indicator and there's no doubt that, although the problem still exists, it helps in lining up correctly.Thanks for the tip fellows.There's also been a lot of other interesting comments. All make sense.I'm hoping that the Microsoft team has read this string and taken our concerns seriously.

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In the case of FS, this is exactly the issue. Though it creates the illusion of a round world, it isn't. But in trying to create that illusion, ones gets the drift and has to keep over correcting to compensate. This has been the same since FS1. What changed from earlier versions is the coordinate system, but in essence FS' world is a flat one.Dave Vega

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ok my two bits.1. im not a real world pilot2. i have been flight simming since ver 3.0 (if this means anything please let me know - :) )3. i have been flying radio controlled models for about 7yrs.ok. so.... the best tip i got (cant remmember where i got it from) was that when on final pick a spot on the top part of your panel and ALLWAYS USE THE SAME SPOT and then line it up with the BACK END OF THE RUNWAY or the OPPOSITE end that your coming in on, i have found this helps tremendously and has improved my landings a lottry it and let me know if you see an improvementoh, a side note, i have also found that when im on short final i look at two things. 1. the centerline of the runway and 2. my airspeed that it, so another tip maybe would be to look out and not down into the cockpit that might help as wellciao!Brian S

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When in the real world of flying a few different GA planes some time ago, I developed the habit of taking just a brief moment on a long taxiway or even on the start of the roll on the runway after lining up to get a "site picture" fixed in my brain. This would include a panel/shield reference point of the offset from the centerline and perspective corrections to roll straight. (This in tricycle gear craft also gave me an idea of clean S&L horizon placement.)Perhaps this technique can be used on final to apply to the virtual center line extension, with offset angle for any desired crabbing.As for the H drift, besides crosswind effects, as you change to lower thrust on approach for singles or assymetrical props, would not the engine(s) P factor and torque factor axis offsets come in to play since they are designed to neutralize those factors at greater power and a reverse effect come into play on reduced power?

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