>>Just minutes ago I visited the webpage for the "Thrustmaster>HOTAS Cougar" and noticed the throttle and its switches and>figured this may indeed cause a problem if it's assigned to>any axis. (You may want to post your config file here)>Cougar config file or XML file? I have not written a Config file using the Cougar software because I had planned to run native (no file loaded) and let FlightGear's XML do all the heavy lifting. If it is the XML, I'll be glad to post that.>In any case such a conflict would surely be shown if you>simply enable the HUD or use the property browser to view the>input values (which I recommended to do since my 2nd reply>:))It was while using the property browser that I noticed the double assign.:-lol >So, if this turns out to be the problem you may want to split>the config file into separate XML files (using the include="">attribute) so that you can simply uncomment a device.>I am not familar with XML coding. My experience is with much older coding for computers, but I can understand the structure, I just need help with the syntax.>I recommended already to disconnect the devices while FG is>running, mainly to see if there's really anything retrieved>from the controls that may be wrong (you should notice such a>change immediatley using the HUD). Furthermore, you'll want to>rule out each device by trying out different device>combinations. I understand that, however unplugging the Cougar is not quite as simple as most ordinary sticks. I would like to resolve and coding issues first. If you remember I originally asked if anybody was running the program with this equipment and if they had an XML file they would share. From the begining I have felt this was a "stick programming" issue, not a device problem.>That way, you will know what device is causing>troubles. So that we can work on a proper XML file for each>device, rather than one comprehensive config file.>However, the problem may already be apparent if you look into>auto-generated XML file.If it is the duel assignment, how do I correct it?When I enter the Cougar Control Panel, it shows the following for axisx=1y=2microstick x (mouse on throttle) = 9 (disabled axis)microstick y (mouse on throttle) = 10 (disabled axis)throttle = 3Ant Knob (want to use for mixture) = 4Range Knob (want to use as prop pitch) = 5Rudder = 6axis 7 & 8 disabled, not assigned.I generated the XML file I am using with fgjs. The Cougar is not unusual in having a split stick and throttle, both with multi-buttons and programmable. The CH yoke and throttle, the Saitek X36's and up are examples. I see that these "sticks" are used in FG, but they were among the latest type of stick to be supported. So perhaps there is a problem still to be resolved with fgjs when it comes to this type of set up.Thanks for your time and energy in helping me with this matter.

>>Just minutes ago I visited the webpage for the "Thrustmaster>>HOTAS Cougar" and noticed the throttle and its switches and>>figured this may indeed cause a problem if it's assigned to>>any axis. (You may want to post your config file here)>>>>Cougar config file or XML file?Sorry, I am referring to the auto-generated XML file that you put below $FG_ROOT/Input/Joysticks, at least as long as you can exclude any problems with the driver config (in other words: are other sims working properly with identical setup and config?)>I have not written a Config>file using the Cougar software because I had planned to run>native (no file loaded) and let FlightGear's XML do all the>heavy lifting. If it is the XML, I'll be glad to post that.Please do so (possibly as attachment!)>>In any case such a conflict would surely be shown if you>>simply enable the HUD or use the property browser to view>the>>input values (which I recommended to do since my 2nd reply>>:))>>It was while using the property browser that I noticed the>double assign.:-lol it's at least good to see that we seem to have a more productive atmosphere now :-lol>>So, if this turns out to be the problem you may want to>>split the config file into separate XML files (using the>>include= attribute) so that you can simply uncomment a device.>>I am not familar with XML coding. My experience is with much>older coding for computers, but I can understand the>structure, I just need help with the syntax.no problem, as a start you may want to refer back to the (mainly PLAIN TEXT/ASCII) documentation under $FG_ROOT/Docs specifically, I would recommend to look into the following text files:README.xmlsyntaxREADME.Joystick.htmlREADME.propertiesREADME.introduction(for your specific case, the above order may make the most sense)This should provide you with all basic info about XML, which in itself is actually quite simple.>>I recommended already to disconnect the devices while FG is>>running, mainly to see if there's really anything retrieved>>from the controls that may be wrong (you should notice such>>a change immediatley using the HUD). Furthermore, you'll want>>to rule out each device by trying out different device>>combinations. >>I understand that, however unplugging the Cougar is not quite>as simple as most ordinary sticks.Okay, that may be true-alternatively, you may want to try to power off the devices, if that's easily possible at runtime?>I would like to resolve and coding issues first.sure, but in the first place we should know if the FlightGear configuration is erratic or if it's the device's native config itself.(I assume there's some sort of programable firmware in such a device?)>If you remember I originally asked>if anybody was running the program with this equipment and if>they had an XML file they would share. From the begining I>have felt this was a "stick programming" issue, not a device>problem.Yes, I do remember-however, particularly in that case it would have been helpful if you had simply provided feedback about the input values for the roll/yaw axes. That way we would have been immediatley able to tell whether the roll moment comes from an external device or not. So, I wasn't asking for these values without a reason.>>That way, you will know what device is causing>>troubles. So that we can work on a proper XML file for each>>device, rather than one comprehensive config file.>>However, the problem may already be apparent if you look>>into auto-generated XML file.>>If it is the duel assignment, how do I correct it?It's hard to tell without looking into the XML code, and then there's still the possibility that the Cougar itself may be misconfigured on the driver side (at least if it shows the behaviour in other sims, too)>When I enter the Cougar Control Panel, it shows the following>for axis>>x=1>y=2>microstick x (mouse on throttle) = 9 (disabled axis)>microstick y (mouse on throttle) = 10 (disabled axis)>throttle = 3>Ant Knob (want to use for mixture) = 4>Range Knob (want to use as prop pitch) = 5>Rudder = 6>>axis 7 & 8 disabled, not assigned.I am afraid I cannot provide much feedback about all these functions as I simply lack the familiarity with such a device.My recommendation would be to simply disable all functions TEMPORARILY except the axes for pitch, roll and yaw. So that things get more intuitive. As soon as the basic controls work, you can still enable all other functions-one after another, to make sure things are still working.>I generated the XML file I am using with fgjs. The Cougar is>not unusual in having a split stick and throttle, both with>multi-buttons and programmable. The CH yoke and throttle, the>Saitek X36's and up are examples. I see that these "sticks">are used in FG, but they were among the latest type of stick>to be supported. So perhaps there is a problem still to be>resolved with fgjs when it comes to this type of set up.The mentioned devices are another potential source of information, so you may want to look into these files and see how each device is configured.>Thanks for your time and energy in helping me with this>matter.it's been a real pleasure so far :)

>Sorry, I am referring to the auto-generated XML file that you>put below $FG_ROOT/Input/Joysticks, at least as long as you>can exclude any problems with the driver config (in other>words: are other sims working properly with identical setup>and config?)All other sims are working fine, no problem.>>>I have not written a Config>>file using the Cougar software because I had planned to run>>native (no file loaded) and let FlightGear's XML do all the>>heavy lifting. If it is the XML, I'll be glad to post that.>>Please do so (possibly as attachment!)Text version of the latest XML generated under fgjs is attached. >it's at least good to see that we seem to have a more>productive atmosphere now :-lol:-lol :-lol>no problem, as a start you may want to refer back to the>(mainly PLAIN TEXT/ASCII) documentation under $FG_ROOT/Docs>specifically, I would recommend to look into the following>text files:>README.xmlsyntax>README.Joystick.html>README.properties>README.introduction>>(for your specific case, the above order may make the most>sense)>This should provide you with all basic info about XML, which>in itself is actually quite simple.Thanks, for the hint, I'll check those out.>Okay, that may be true-alternatively, you may want to try to>power off the devices, if that's easily possible at runtime?I can disable the devices via the device manager, would that do?>>I would like to resolve and coding issues first.>sure, but in the first place we should know if the FlightGear>configuration is erratic or if it's the device's native config>itself.>(I assume there's some sort of programable firmware in such a>device?)Maybe this bit of info will help put that worry to rest. The first time I used FG, I had NOT used fgjs to build an XML file, I used the default that came with the install. I had NO problem flying the p51, take off and landing. It was when I used fgjs to create the XML that these problems happened. I can still fly the default XML just fine.When I was going through the steps with fgjs, I noticed that the Cougar was listed as an "8 axis"(actually there are 10 avialable) stick. And while there are 8 available in the native mode I am running it in, only six; X,Y,Throttle, Ant Knob, Range Knob, and Rudder. The other two are disabled. So if fgjs is reading the stick to see how many axis exist, it's getting the number wrong.....I think.Anyways, attached is the XML (text) file.Cheers.

Just looked quickly into the attached file and didn't even read your posting, and there's clearly a double assignment, so have you tried simply removing or uncommenting the throttle paragraph?Just in case you haven't yet read the XML related docs:you can comment out an XML passage by adding So, basically just enclose the throttle passage in

>>Sorry, I am referring to the auto-generated XML file that>you>>put below $FG_ROOT/Input/Joysticks, at least as long as you>>can exclude any problems with the driver config (in other>>words: are other sims working properly with identical setup>>and config?)>All other sims are working fine, no problem.Okay, I think it should be relatively safe to assume then that it's a problem related to the device's FlightGear config.>Thanks, for the hint, I'll check those out.Yes, the "Docs" sub folder is generally an excellent resource if you are trying to get started with FlightGear.>>Okay, that may be true-alternatively, you may want to try to>>power off the devices, if that's easily possible at runtime?>>I can disable the devices via the device manager, would that>do?probably yes, but that's usually not a good idea under windows (OS stability), so let's only get back to that possibility if nothing else works.>Maybe this bit of info will help put that worry to rest. The>first time I used FG, I had NOT used fgjs to build an XML>file, I used the default that came with the install. I had NO>problem flying the p51, take off and landing. It was when I>used fgjs to create the XML that these problems happened. I>can still fly the default XML just fine.well, yes it would indeed have been useful if you had mentioned this right from the beginning of our little odyssee :)>When I was going through the steps with fgjs, I noticed that>the Cougar was listed as an "8 axis"(actually there are 10>avialable) stick. And while there are 8 available in the>native mode I am running it in, only six; X,Y,Throttle, Ant>Knob, Range Knob, and Rudder. The other two are disabled. So>if fgjs is reading the stick to see how many axis exist, it's>getting the number wrong.....I think.Not sure about this now, but you may want to experiment with this by disabling different axes and rerunning fgjs and afterwards comparing the XML files (make sure not to overwrite any possibly customized files!), this will tell you what information fgjs is reading in.

>Just looked quickly into the attached file and didn't even>read your posting, and there's clearly a double assignment, so>have you tried simply removing or uncommenting the throttle>paragraph?>>Just in case you haven't yet read the XML related docs:>>you can comment out an XML passage by adding >>>So, basically just enclose the throttle passage in >>Commenting out the throttle passge resulted in no throttle action, but the throttle became the aileron axis. In otherwords to move the cockpits yoke to the right, throw the throttle forward.The sticks side to side movement (y or aileron axis) creates no movement of the cockpit controls at all. Forward-back does produce in-out motion of yoke.Also when I deployed flaps, the control yoke move to the right.continuing to try different axis combinations.

>probably yes, but that's usually not a good idea under windows>(OS stability), so let's only get back to that possibility if>nothing else works.I agree, winOS has enough problems.>well, yes it would indeed have been useful if you had>mentioned this right from the beginning of our little odyssee>:)Sorry about that, it kinda got lost between posts. :-lol>>>When I was going through the steps with fgjs, I noticed that>>the Cougar was listed as an "8 axis"(actually there are 10>>avialable) stick. And while there are 8 available in the>>native mode I am running it in, only six; X,Y,Throttle, Ant>>Knob, Range Knob, and Rudder. The other two are disabled. >So>>if fgjs is reading the stick to see how many axis exist,>it's>>getting the number wrong.....I think.>>Not sure about this now, but you may want to experiment with>this by disabling different axes and rerunning fgjs and>afterwards comparing the XML files (make sure not to overwrite>any possibly customized files!), this will tell you what>information fgjs is reading in.Before I get that deep, I'm going switch axis assignments within the xml file and see what happens.

>Commenting out the throttle passge resulted in no throttle>action, but the throttle became the aileron axis. In>otherwords to move the cockpits yoke to the right, throw the>throttle forward.>>The sticks side to side movement (y or aileron axis) creates>no movement of the cockpit controls at all. Forward-back does>produce in-out motion of yoke.>>Also when I deployed flaps, the control yoke move to the>right.>>continuing to try different axis combinations.Based on what you are describing I would guess that the axes are sequentially enumerated, thus you may not only want to try different combinations but possibly also different numberings for each axis.

Got IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!I tried another go at building an XML file via the fsjs program. This time I noticed something different. When the program asked for the Aileron axis, it noted it as axis 4, not 2 as all the other times before. I had not yet tried going into the Cougar control panel and re-assigning axis, so I knew this was different. I let the program create the XML file and then went in and edited the file. I kept trying different axis combinations, which did not work, until I tried axis 0 (zero) for the Ailerons with all other assignemnts just as fgjs had configured them originally.Bingo, it came up fine with the stick working like a stick and the throttle working like a throttle.Got so excited that I have tried a number of planes in the package. Great Fun!!!!I have to say that the P51 model is pretty good (and btw, it's FM is pretty close to a couple of commercial flight sims I own and use).Thanks for your help and support.I know FG and I are going to get along just fine now.

>Got IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!>>>I tried another go at building an XML file via the fsjs>program. This time I noticed something different. When the>program asked for the Aileron axis, it noted it as axis 4, not>2 as all the other times before. I had not yet tried going>into the Cougar control panel and re-assigning axis, so I knew>this was different. I let the program create the XML file and>then went in and edited the file. I kept trying different>axis combinations, which did not work, until I tried axis 0>(zero) for the Ailerons with all other assignemnts just as>fgjs had configured them originally.>>Bingo, it came up fine with the stick working like a stick and>the throttle working like a throttle.>>Got so excited that I have tried a number of planes in the>package. Great Fun!!!!>>I have to say that the P51 model is pretty good (and btw, it's>FM is pretty close to a couple of commercial flight sims I own>and use).>>Thanks for your help and support.>>I know FG and I are going to get along just fine now.Congratulations!! Please make sure to send in your customized config file to the developers, so that it can be included in upcoming FlightGear versions by default. Also, you may want to add a couple of comments to the customized portions of the file.

Yes I will as soon as I get all the buttons setup via the XML file.What's interesting is that axis 0 is not listed anywhere that I could find in the Cougar manuals. In addition this Aileron axis (0) is actually the JoystickY axis, the SECOND axis on the stick (The first being JoystickX). Does the fgjs utility always start with the Aileron axis? Most sticks I'm familar with use a X/Y config, with X being the elevator axis (first) and Y (Ailerons) being second. If it (fgjs) does always start with the Y, then it seems to be a bit out of sync with normal configs. Just a thought.

>What's interesting is that axis 0 is not listed anywhere that>I could find in the Cougar manuals.ok, that sound weird, on the other hand sometimes 0 is 1 and vice versa (depending on where you start to count).>In addition this Aileron>axis (0) is actually the JoystickY axis, the SECOND axis on>the stick (The first being JoystickX).well, there's still the chance that fgjs provided some weird config file- and/or your specific setup may require certain customizations.>Does the fgjs utility always start with the Aileron axis? Not sure about that, one would have to look into the source code to tell reliably. On the other hand there seems to be another good reason to do exactly that, apparently fgjs will happily assign multiple axes to the same aircraft functions by default (i.e. throttle & bank -> aileron), so even though there may be cases where this is ok, it might be a good idea for fgjs to show a short warning message indicating that this may cause trouble under some circumstances? In particular, if an affected axis provides non-standard default values while in neutral position, i.e. when fgjs is run it should be a relatively safe assumption that the controls are all in neutral position (or fgjs could explicitly even ask the user to reset the controls if necessary). Afterwards, fgjs would indeed be able to spot axes that provide "potentially problematic" (aka non-zero) data, in any case it might be a good idea for fgjs to then provide additional comments in the corresponding XML file, indicating a possibly conflicting axis assignment.>Most sticks I'm familar with use a X/Y config, with X being>the elevator axis (first) and Y (Ailerons) being second. If>it (fgjs) does always start with the Y, then it seems to be a>bit out of sync with normal configs. Yes, it may be a good idea to carefully look into whether this may be the potential source of your initial problems, even if it's only to exclude this possibility.

>Yes I will as soon as I get all the buttons setup via the XML>file.After all, it's interesting to note that this whole discussion could have probably ended much sooner if there was a somewhat more intuitive way for USERS to show their hardware's input values at runtime. This would at least make it possible to simply exclude the input hardware itself as potential problem source. Maybe it might be a good idea to add a simple "joystick" menu entry to the debug menu that displays a dialog with the current x,y,z axis input from the hardware (possibly using a slider for each axis). That way, users could immediatley be pointed to this menu entry and asked to verify that their mis-configured hardware is not the actual cause of their problems. This would make debugging such issues probably significantly easier :)

Yes a "more intuitive way for USERS" would get rid of a number of problems that new users have.If there could be a an actual "assign" screen where users could assign a button or axis value (rather than asking which button for gear down for example) it would help too. Give the user a list of values to be assigned and allow them to pick and choose, then build the xml file from the choices. To do that, fgjs would have to know how many axis and how many buttons each "stick" had. That can either be provided via it's detection capability or via the user entering the info.

>Yes a "more intuitive way for USERS" would get rid of a>number of problems that new users have.>>If there could be a an actual "assign" screen where users>could assign a button or axis value (rather than asking which>button for gear down for example) it would help too. Give the>user a list of values to be assigned and allow them to pick>and choose, then build the xml file from the choices. I think this can be highly specific to certain aircraft, some of which may provide features that others don't (i.e. retractable gear, autopilot, multiple engines/turbines). >To do that, fgjs would have to know how many axis and how many>buttons each "stick" had. That can either be provided via>it's detection capability or via the user entering the info. Well, it might be possible to integrate the fgjs functionality directly into FG, that way it should not be too hard to have a special hard coded joystick calibration/configuration dialog that basically calls the fgjs routines, one would then need to add support for FlightGear to switch configs at runtime, so that the newly created config file can be loaded so that its changes take effect at runtime, rather than at startup.