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jt_williams

Avanti Record Flight - KDEN-KMDW (Recreation Attempt)

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On June 30, 2004 Joe Ritchie set a world speed record in the Piaggio Avanti on a flight from Denver to Chicago. The flight took 1 hour 32 minutes and 40 seconds. Average Speed was 497.4kntshttp://www.airalpha.com/AircraftSales/Piag...%20records.aspxI found this performance astonishing as I have never been able to approach it while flying the FSD Avanti in last years race and in practice this year. I am of the opinion that the real article is capable of significantly faster flight than the FSD model. I was therefore very skeptical when the race committe said the performance of the FSD model was too fast and mandated a change in the aircraft config. That discussion can be reviewed in this thread:http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sho...2471&page=#2529Matt Smith's explanation for the record speed was a high tailwind component, but he failed to account for the takeoff/climb/descent/approach phases of flight in his analysis. I decided to attempt to recreate Joe Ritchie's record setting flight using the FSD model. I used the advanced weather dialog to create increasing tailwinds rising to 150Knts at 35000 feet. It took me three attempts. The first two failed due to overspeed stress. The third time I had a successful flight but I could not achieve the record speeds. So, how did Joe Ritchie get the Avanti to Chicago in 1 hour 32 minutes? If you think it was higher tailwinds, you might want to think again. Think about where the jetstream is located in the month of June. I've found the winds aloft data sets for the day in question for Denver, North Platte, and Omaha. Any guess as to the average winds aloft at 35K?How did he do it?http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/142044.jpgJeff Williams (KDCA)

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and remember he was flying a full load of passengers and cargo, while we're flying an empty aircraft!So his performance was lower than ours would have to be over the same route segment because he was heavy.I may try to fly one of the other routes tonight, see what happens.

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looking at the NAA site, on their records pages I found a pdf that describes what is meant by "speed over a recognized course" http://www.naa.aero/html/records/index.cfm?cmsid=48it appears it may apply to point-to-point flights, not necessarily including take-offs, climbs, approaches and landings. The start and and finish times are defined thus:Start Time of the Attempt1. Certification of Takeoff (Form 1) signed by an NAA Official Observer1, or FAA personnel (or their foreign or military equivalent). The form must be given to the appropriateperson before the start of the attempt and mailed directly to NAA by the signatory. or2. Certification of Time Crossing Fix (Form 2)2 indicating the time of passage over the airport, navigational aid, or other acceptable fix, signed by an NAA Official Observer, or FAA personnel (or their foreign or military equivalent). This requires advance communication and coordination. The form must be mailed directly to NAA by the signatory.Finish Time of the Attempt1. Certification of Landing (Form 7) signed by an NAA Official Observer1, or FAA personnel (or their foreign or military equivalent). The form must be given to the appropriate person before the start of the attempt and mailed directly to NAA by the signatory.or2. Certification of Time Crossing Fix (Form 2)2 indicating the time of passage over the airport, navigational aid, or other acceptable fix, signed by an NAA Official Observer, or FAA personnel (or their foreign or military equivalent). This requires advance communication and coordination. The form must be mailed directly to NAA by the signatory.I'd guess that's how those records were set. You might try simulating it this way and see if it works out closer.- dcc

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EDIT: I was a bit harsh first time around. Sorry.Hi Jeff,You're talking about aircraft performance, which wasn't what our edit dealt with. We only had you change the maximum speed that the airframe can withstand before breaking up. This doesn't affect how fast the airplane can go, only when it breaks up.We're reviewing your appeal on the overstress speed. We'll have a response for you as soon as possible, but as you can imagine we're quite busy.It seems likely that this results from a discrepancy in climb performance.Out of curiosity: Did you take off with full fuel? What was your average speed on the climb?EDIT - Based on David's post above mine, it now seems likely that this was in fact a point-to-point flight and he started at altitude. If not, then it's probably the climb characteristics, as I said above.Good luck if you try for the record again. As for me, I'm off to bed.Best Regards, and thanks for keeping things interesting,Matt

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The report indicates that the flights were with full passengers and cargo and not made specifically as record flights but during normal operational cycles.Those usually include takeoffs and landings ;)

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>The report indicates that the flights were with full>passengers and cargo and not made specifically as record>flights but during normal operational cycles.>Those usually include takeoffs and landings ;)I would concur, but one could also imagine that he filed an intent to break the record, loaded his passengers and baggage, took off, climbed to altitude above Denver and then arranged for the certified start / finish, then landed. Either that or he pushed the plane past its published specs and risked his passenger's safety. Of the two, I think the former is more likely :)- dcc

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Dave,I think your first scenario is correct. A "running start" and "running finish" fix to fix is needed to get close to this speed. FYIThe direct course heading from Denver to Chicago is 244The winds aloft observation data I found for June 3:DNR Denver 30K - 34.9K 273/32LFB North Platte 30K - 34.9K 288/44OAX Omaha 30K - 34.9K 303/21DNR Denver 35K - 41K 276/40LFB North Platte 35K - 41K 287/44OAX Omaha 35K - 41K 294/29Jeff

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Ritchie and his "old friend" Steve Fossett also holds another record in the AvantiUS Transcontinental Record:San Diego - Charleston SC - 546.44 mph / 879.46 km/hr (2/03/2003) - 3 hr 51 m 52 sec (The old record was Chuck Yeager in a Piper Cheyenne LS400 - Los Angeles - New York - 454.79 mph / 731.92 km/hr - 1986)Dallas - Atlanta - 577 mph (2/03/2003) w. Arthur St Clair holds the following records in an AvantiDenver - Atlanta - 745.88 km/hr (3/11/2005) - N320CAw/ Frad WhittenAtlanta, GA - Orlando GA - 623.84 km/hr (6/22/2005) - N320CAWhitten w/ St ClairIndianapolis, IN - Orlando, FL - 684.66 km/hr (7/11/2005) - N320CAHere's an interesting article on the process of setting a record. Most real pilots could do so in a few days. The key is picking a pair of cities which no one else has used to establish a record. Some like the transcontinental record take some more details.Some records include takeoff and landings, some do not, but if anyone believes these flights are normal everyday course of business flights ....well.http://www.airspacemag.com/asm/Mag/index/1996/fm/sysr.htmlNow to do some work with a conversion calculator:501.40 kts / 928.59 kph / 577.00 mph - Ritchie/ Fossett - Dallas - Altanta - Feb 3, 2003498.5 kts / 923.22 kph / 573.66 mph - Ritchie - Omaha - Chicago - June 3, 2004497.4 kts / 921.18 kph / 572.40 mph - Ritchie - Denver - Chicago - June 3, 2004496.2 kts / 918.92 kph / 571.02 mph- Ritchie - Denver - Omaha - Jun 3, 2004 (The only flight with pax and baggage mentioned in the article)475.03 kts / 879.76 kph / 546.66 mph - Ritchie/ Fossett - San Diego - Charleston SC - Feb 3, 2003402.74 kts / 745.88 kph / 463.47 mph - St Clair - Denver - Atlanta -March, 11, 2005396.69 kts / 684.66 kph / 425.43 mph - Whitten / St Clair - Indianapolis - Orlando FL - July 11, 2005336.85 kts / 623.84 kph / 387.64 mph - St Clair / Whitten - Atlanta, GA - Orlando GA - June 22, 2005323.26 kts / 598.68 kph / 372 mph - Steve Santo / St Clair - Chicago - Las Vegas - Oct 10, 2004The press release for the Santo Chicago - Las Vegas flight has some good details - "reaching a maximum of 366 KTAS" - 1,320 nm - headwinds of 10-50 kts. http://www.sloaneaviation.com/press/NBAA_0...ecord-Vegas.doc It also says the Avanti holds 11 speed records. Santo is president of Avantair - a fractional owner with 20 Avanti's in it's fleet as of Nov 2005.For the Nov 2005 NBAA there were some interesting notes about the Avanti - AC #100 has been delivered - to AvantAir.The first Avanti II has been delivered to the Italian National Forestry Corps.The Avanti II has the Collins Pro Line avionics package - the first "glass cockpit" version of the aircraft. As of November it was not yet certified by the US FAA, but expected soon. The price tag is listed as $6.195 million.2006 production should be 24 aircraft - 2005 was 17.The St Clair and Whitten speed records were announced at that time - bring the Avanti to hold 17 speed records.But this talk is all useless idle speculation. We don't know the exact weather for any flight - we do know trends - but not that day and not at the specific altitudes flown - we don't know the takeoff weight - we don't know if it was a full takeoff and landing or a point to point record.It's interesting that Piaggio's The Piaggio does NOT hold the Closed Course speed record for 500 km, 1,000 km, or 1,500 km for it's class of turboprop aircraft.

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"not made specifically as record flights"A record cannot be recorded and will not be accepted without prior notification of an attempt, approval of the certification authorities/ observers - normally a prior arrangement with the controllers at the takeoff and landind airports, and payment of fees.The fee for a C-172 record attempt and to have the record certified was almost $800 in the one article.The fees go up for each aircraft class. I have no idea how much - but Ritchie and his company surely committed at least a thousand dollars for each record attempt. Chump change to an aircraft operator - but substantially more than my weekly take home.PS where did you find the information on the actual airports? I'd be surprised to see this type aircraft operating out of KDEN - KAPA, KBJC or KFTG are substantially less expensive and much more convenient for the passengers.

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I did not find a reference to airports. Just a guess on my part. I needed a departure point in Denver and arrival point in Chicago. Jeff

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