As the topic says, i think getting solid air cooling and a portable a/c is the best cheapest way for cooling.currently my [email protected] is cooled by 3x140mm noctua quiet fans, 2 other 140mm fans bringing air in from the lower front, and 2 120 mm noctua fans bringing air in from the top rear next to window where cool air comes in.The lower back of the pc where cpu and gpu are is exhaust of the system, and this area is covered with a cadboard box to force heat to the ground away from cool air coming in from window.finally work on the way to add 3 more 140mm fans on top of case to bring air in, in future my portbale a/c will blow cool air in right into the top of the case where my top case fans are bringing air in.in summary good air cooling only needs lower ambient temps to work great, so why not use a cheap portable a/c rather than an expensive water / phase cooling that could damage your pc , and cuases hassle to maintain.3 x140mm noctua high air flow fans in series taking air out of cpu heatsink only needs low ambient temps to compete with the best of the expensive water cooled systems. so my verdict is , just get a good air cooling and and an a/c to help reduce ambient temps in summer.Did some google research on pc airflow while doing this build , and it was quite interesting to see that, your pc will probably be hotter with the case open than closed, as my was. Cause case open creates low ambient temp inside pc case but reduces the speed of air flow. so my temps are higher with case open than closed.Fan controller with temp sensors is a must to get the feel of what goes on inside the case when pc is running and case is all covered up.For example did you know that positive pressure air cooling helps to blow dust out of the pc better than negative pressure air cooling.POsitive pressure means you got more fan air power flowing in the case than out, hence negative means more air going out than in, effectively a vacume. I went for postive air pressure to help keep the dust out.Also covered all unused pc slots and case air holes with tape, so that the only way for air to get out the pc is via cpu and gpu area. This ensures all air coming in cooles cpu , gpu and other high heat components.Using noctua fans and lian li b71 case with noise dampers, this 8 fan pc is quiter than my old antec 300 case with one 140mm and one 120mm fan.Verdict is get good air cooling and portable a/c, instead of complicated liquid/phase cooling options.

in summary good air cooling only needs lower ambient temps to work great, so why not use a cheap portable a/c rather than an expensive water / phase cooling that could damage your pc , and cuases hassle to maintain.so my verdict is , just get a good air cooling and and an a/c to help reduce ambient temps in summer.

So I think you answered your own questions... Liquid cools consistently regardless of Ambient temperature. I already have A/C in my house but I do not want to keep my house at 68 degrees in the summer to keep system temps down. It would cost me a fortune. I also am not about to add another Air Conditioner to a house that already has AC just for the computer. I would think the costs of running an AC unit every time you fly will quickly offset the costs of doing liquid once. Not to mention you better hope you have a different circuit to plug the AC into. Running my 1KW power supply and an AC unit off the same circuit would quickly blow as it is now being asked to operate beyond its capacity. In fact, the ambient temp in my CPU room can be 80 degrees and my CPU/Processor and Video Cards maintain their temps without issue. My CPU which is OC'd out the butt sits at 36 Degrees... Not to mention that dust buildup is not a quarter of the problem in my liquid systems as in my air cooled systems... And as someone who has run liquid for years, it is pretty much set it and forget it. Personally, I love it and if you REALLY want to start pushing to the highest levels of OC'ing your system then liquid is the way to go. I have never seen one of the professional OverClockers running on air ;).Now with all of that being siad, for the average simmer to OC to around 4 which seems to be the magic number, there are a lot of air cooling that is extremely effective and no doubt much easier to set up. But if you have rooms that get very warm in summer and you need to maintain constant temps regardless of ambient temps, liquid is the way to go...Personally, I have been toying with the idea of getting a min fridge and putting my whole system inside it LOL!!! Only issue would be condensation as most of the Data Centers I walk into are kept between 50-55 degrees anyway... Nothing like going into a Data Center in the middle of August and having to put on winter jackets to go inside LOL...Hope that helps a little, it is just my .02,-Paul

So I think you answered your own questions... Liquid cools consistently regardless of Ambient temperature. I already have A/C in my house but I do not want to keep my house at 68 degrees in the summer to keep system temps down. It would cost me a fortune. I also am not about to add another Air Conditioner to a house that already has AC just for the computer. I would think the costs of running an AC unit every time you fly will quickly offset the costs of doing liquid once. Not to mention you better hope you have a different circuit to plug the AC into. Running my 1KW power supply and an AC unit off the same circuit would quickly blow as it is now being asked to operate beyond its capacity. In fact, the ambient temp in my CPU room can be 80 degrees and my CPU/Processor and Video Cards maintain their temps without issue. My CPU which is OC'd out the butt sits at 36 Degrees... Not to mention that dust buildup is not a quarter of the problem in my liquid systems as in my air cooled systems... And as someone who has run liquid for years, it is pretty much set it and forget it. Personally, I love it and if you REALLY want to start pushing to the highest levels of OC'ing your system then liquid is the way to go. I have never seen one of the professional OverClockers running on air ;).Now with all of that being siad, for the average simmer to OC to around 4 which seems to be the magic number, there are a lot of air cooling that is extremely effective and no doubt much easier to set up. But if you have rooms that get very warm in summer and you need to maintain constant temps regardless of ambient temps, liquid is the way to go...Personally, I have been toying with the idea of getting a min fridge and putting my whole system inside it LOL!!! Only issue would be condensation as most of the Data Centers I walk into are kept between 50-55 degrees anyway... Nothing like going into a Data Center in the middle of August and having to put on winter jackets to go inside LOL...Hope that helps a little, it is just my .02,-Paul

nice, definatly made some good points worth keeping in mind, like not plugging A/c and PC in same circuit. Thanks for the input i wanted opinions from die hard liquid folks as well, cause am asking a question here not giving an answer. And the question is, is the hassle of liquid cooling worth it. The debate ffrom both sides here should hlep those looking to do a new build or upgrade.And the results i share here are from the build i am just completing/testing at the momentwin7[email protected]gtx285 1gig6gig cors air doiminatorGigabyte ud7 moboAs for portable a/c, it only works if you sim in a room where portable a/c will have effect, portable a/c will not work if it has to cool your whole house and not just the room in which pc sits.As for cost of running a/c, i need a/c in hot summers anyway siming or not, having it on only on the hotter summer days while siming wount change a thing about my power bills.Plus with air, you can move your pc around without the risk of water spilling into components.With water ambient temps matter everybit as much as air cuase the radiators in water cooled systems are still air cooled at ambuent temps. So for water cooled ambient temps is stil a big factor.But if you have a

As I went from very good air cooling to water cooling, here are my opinions. I can only express prices and degrees in € and celsius, since I'm in Austria, but here it goes:Watercooling realeases much less noise and is much more cost effective, and low temperatures are maintained MUCH easier. I had a very good air cooling through years, and I once stood up and said, that's it, I want it silent and cool.I might also say, at the time, I also lived in the appartment which also had A/C, and the ambient temperature in the summer has been kept around 25c, in winter it was around 23c usually.So, I got myself watercooling - first thing I noticed, computer didn't care any more if I used A/C or not. It was working with the same operating temperature as always, usually idling somewhere around 38c.A year or two later, I moved from this appartment to a new one, which didn't have nor need A/C. Even with the computer running all day, I never needed any extra cooling, as was usually the thing with the air cooling - I can't really explain it, but it releases less heat (which should physically be impossible), ambient temperature never grew as fast as with air cooling.Most noticable advantage is that the system is running much less heat inside the case - I guess that's why all my core components are watercooled (CPU, GPU, HDD). I never cooled a chipset, it's just too costly in my opinion, and is working well with just one case fan.Considering hassle - well, I don't have much of a hassle here. When running, I have to pour in little water every couple of months, cause it dissipates slowly over time - takes me about 2-3 min to do (I always have a destilled water at home, if nothing else than for ironing).Only hassle I see about it, when you want to exchange core components - then it is a hassle - blow the water out, carefully open the pipes with the towel beneath to protect components etc. But I never had ANY damage by it, and I don't see how it could happen - all pipes are very good ones, sturdy, and once up and running, no real hassle, as said.Also to be said, costs of running A/C, NEVER AGAIN. Just to have it a little cooler, pay 3x more for the power per year. I pay now around 250€ per year for power. In the place where I had A/C, I used to pay around 600€ per year for power only. Considering that my watercooling costed my 600€ the first time I got it, I think it's obvious which is more costly.The fact is, if you need a/c for yourself, you should get it if it's too hot, but it is also a fact that watercooling is not going to heat up your room as quickly as aircooling. Watercooling is in every way, except start-cost, superior to air cooling.

Plus with air, you can move your pc around without the risk of water spilling into components.

I could turn my PC upside down without water spilling anywhere. It's a closed and fixed system which can't spill unless you either pull the pipes VERY hard or you open it (unscrew the pneumatic holders).

With water ambient temps matter everybit as much as air cuase the radiators in water cooled systems are still air cooled at ambuent temps. So for water cooled ambient temps is stil a big factor.

Nah. Water radiators have a much larger cooling surface, thus water can't be heated up as fast, and is being constantly much better cooled, especially cuz the radiator is on the outside, where ambient temp is lower than inside of the case.

To appreciate where am coming from, the cpu's of today dont just heat up your pc, they so powerfull they heat up the room as well, my i7975 @ 4.4gigs heats up the room sometimes to the point where i swithc off the heater as room gets too hot.

Not something I experienced with watercooling. Ever.

I built this air cooled pc myself, and considered going liquid, but its more complicated than its worth in my opnion

So I thought before I got it myself.

As long as the radiators of liquid cooled systems are cooled by fans, both air and liquid cooled systems are pretty much equally vunerable to high ambient temps of summer.

Something one would think, but it's wrong. Only thing watercooling is vulnerable against, is the sun shining on the radiator.

Thanks for the replies , it contributes to the info on such matters in this forum.With water cooling maintanance is managing your liquid plumbing and refil .With air cooling maintanance is cleaning inside the case to get dust out, but less dust if you use postive air flow pressure inside the case.BUT since i can get 4.4 Gigs OC on air with I7-975 in 10 minutes of OC labour, i would not want to go liquid considering the cost. In which case the only merit for going liquid would be cause its quieter.I have not really finished the build yet, got 3 more noctua fans to complete to build. i bet the pc could even do 5Ghz on air, but only in winter. I think so cause the chip OC'd to 4.4Ghz with no effort.But then i got a very fast ram, and 1500 watts of power supply. OC needs power.I,d rather spend cash on Power supply/ fans/ and even a/c so that the PC air flow along with the a/c helps the ventilation inside the room.I had an i7920 system before this i7975, and they were both built to the best of standards. But when running at full load they do the heat up the room expecially if you using heavy duty GPU like Nvidia 200 series.With that much heat coming out of the system, the question is not do you have efficient heat cooling system, but the heat pumped into the room by your cooling sysytem is gona heat up the room no matter what kind of cooling you are using. Unless you freezing the components , like in phase change. even then the phase chnage heat pump will heat up your romm also.In which case with this i7's running at full load on a warm summerr day, could be a hot one if you try to run i7 at 4.4gigs, no matter what kind of cooling you using.The best air cooling is useless in a hot room in summer, and same could be said for many of the water cooling too, but in a room where you control the ambient with a/c you can set the ambient temp and let the pc cooling use that as its Ground.What ever cooling you using, the cooling system will always use the room its in to dissipate heat, and the ambient temp in that room will be a component of how hot your pc is.

With water cooling maintanance is managing your liquid plumbing and refil .

What do I have to manage concerning plumbing? I connect pipes once, when building and that's it. I don't understand. Refill - yeah, every couple of months, 2-3min work - less fuss than cleaning fans and dust out of the case. Which btw. I have very little due to only 1 fan...

I had an i7920 system before this i7975, and they were both built to the best of standards. But when running at full load they do the heat up the room expecially if you using heavy duty GPU like Nvidia 200 series.With that much heat coming out of the system, the question is not do you have efficient heat cooling system, but the heat pumped into the room by your cooling sysytem is gona heat up the room no matter what kind of cooling you are using. Unless you freezing the components , like in phase change. even then the phase chnage heat pump will heat up your romm also.

You still refuse to believe that there is less heating of the room with watercooled system. I know from a simple subjective test after I put it together. Same room, it was summer as I built it...

In which case with this i7's running at full load on a warm summerr day, could be a hot one if you try to run i7 at 4.4gigs, no matter what kind of cooling you using.

Wrong. Aircooling + hot ambient without a/c = death, Watercooling + hot ambient without a/c = working fine (as long as ambient doesn't go over 40c, which it usually doesn't)

The best air cooling is useless in a hot room in summer, and same could be said for many of the water cooling too, but in a room where you control the ambient with a/c you can set the ambient temp and let the pc cooling use that as its Ground.

You are totally misunderstanding the purpose of watercooling. I can tell first hand, that watercooled system will hold temperatures low even with high ambient temperature. For a long time. I can't stress this enough.Anyway, I think this discussion with you is rather pointless, since you obviously have no experience with both. Even more, if you are that much persuaded with air cooling, I really suggest you keep it. You know, to each his own.I think I stated all I can say.Have a nice day.

ForzenCpu.com is owned by a friend of mine here localy and several times in the past he tried to convince me to go water, I see the latest H2, phase and air systems that they build as well as the parts they sell for the DIY crowd and have paid attention to what is available and what works and feel I should offer an opinion from maybe a different angle as I'm still not convinced.Not long ago many of these ideas about Water vs. Air were so true, it was Black & white.But things have changed a lot over the last year or so when it comes to comparisons.Though there are certainly benefits, H2O systems are loosing their edge. Its no longer water vs. air, they both rely on air, really it is now Water vs. better and better HeatPipe tech.Just look at some of the best overclocking charts of modern quads for an idea, do you see many H2 systems offering all that much more compared to a modern air system for all the money, time and hassle that an H2 system brings? I dont see it.http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showth...highlight=batchFor instance what more would a H2O system afford me as far as my O/C? Though I bought a case with a custom H2 build in mind I am doing close to 4.5Ghz on air with just one 1200rpm fan on the HS.I would have to have a >really good Water system to beat the Megahalems for thermal & noise so it would cost in the $300-$600 range for what? 100, 200 maybe 300 more Hz?Any other lesser H2 systems (kits) just wont do the job, especially if you factor in the cost/hassle to performance ratio. And as for those "kits" some arnt bad if you want something mild and quiet but it ends there.Same as per my GPU, its on air, it is twice as quiet as stock and is cooler by almost as much (Accelero Xtreme) and that include VRM whichalso adresses anoth point and that is that most of the time aircooling adresses chipset and VRM when H2O does not.(two good GPU coolers tested: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/coolers/d...st_6.html#sect1 )If you are looking to overclock at the high end It has repeatably been shown that these days, a good modern air HS/fan can usually equal if not beat any currently offered water cooling "kit" as to thermal performance at the top end and as to loudness, and certainly tops it for cost and hassle.However Air will not beat a no money spared, well thought out and made H2O system as far as the best of the best in thermal performance, and you have to really admire something like what Word Not Allowed is using for sheer quite, though I have listened to some pumps that were quite annoying and probably louder than you would expect so if you go that way make sure you do your homework (as the same for Fans).And it really depends a lot on what you are trying to achieve and at what cost; money no object extreme max, bang for the buck or HTPC etcDo you want good bang for the buck, no hassles, that will overclock to the near max as well as some quiet? That can be achieved on air and for less than $100 your done, no hassles.If you want super quiet HTPC, that can all be done. As well, to all different degrees from passive to active, there are fans that move the air near silent.I still entertain the thought of an H2 system because I have the bay for it, but I think the money will be beter spent somewhere else, maybe if the Fermi proves it self it will go there.As for HTPC and water cooling and as much as I like the idea of a

You still refuse to believe that there is less heating of the room with watercooled system. I know from a simple subjective test after I put it together. Same room, it was summer as I built it...Wrong. Aircooling + hot ambient without a/c = death, Watercooling + hot ambient without a/c = working fine (as long as ambient doesn't go over 40c, which it usually doesn't)You are totally misunderstanding the purpose of watercooling. I can tell first hand, that watercooled system will hold temperatures low even with high ambient temperature. For a long time. I can't stress this enough.

Word Not Allowed,This makes no sense, the therms have to be exchanged either way, Air is Air, what is the radiator doing? It’s exchanging the heated water with the air, what is the Heatpipe doing? The same and in some case just as quick (vaporized Alcohol etc.). What is the source of the heat in both cases? The same CPU.Once the water system reaches it equilibrium state, if anything the water system will heat up the environment quicker because it is more efficient, especially if it is quicker at exchanging the heat from the CPU.Sorry but I don’t follow your logic on this point.

Word Not Allowed,This makes no sense, the therms have to be exchanged either way, Air is Air, what is the radiator doing? It’s exchanging the heated water with the air, what is the Heatpipe doing? The same and in some case just as quick (vaporized Alcohol etc.). What is the source of the heat in both cases? The same CPU.Once the water system reaches it equilibrium state, if anything the water system will heat up the environment quicker because it is more efficient, especially if it is quicker at exchanging the heat from the CPU.Sorry but I don’t follow your logic on this point.

I wrote in a thread before even, that physically it's actually impossible to be different. Because as you say, therm is therm. My guess only, I have no other explanation, is that watercooling exchanges temperature much slower (quick on the waterside, slow on the radiator side, since the water temps don't rise as quick as aircooler ones), heating much slower and also cooling down much faster, allowing for less perseptible change and also the room is able to "exchange" the air quicker, no matter if you have windows or a/c. Also an idea is, that when everything is inside of the case, temperatures possibly rise much faster, due to being warmer on the inside. This way it's split, and the total heat exhausted is lower than when you aircool, when a hotter air is exhausted at the back port.The fact is though a fact, water will always kill the air when compared in dB. If you would put my system on the best air there is, I guarantee you, it would be much louder and sound like an aircraft engine when gaming. This way, nothing changes, ever. Why?1) GPU has no fan2) CPU has no fan3) HDDs are closed in the thick boxes that go into 5.25 slots, which has both thick metal casing and also around 1cm of foam and 1cm thick waterblocks on each side of the hdd, keeping it both cool and unhearable, even the loud 10k raptor (for which a bit of modding was needed, an additional foam, to really keep totally quiet)4) Pump is in the similar casingInitial cost = 600€, after that, only brackets for mounts of the CPU and each time a GPU cooler when I change the GPU.One day, when SSDs take over, probably it will be unnecessary, but still, keeping the GPU silent while doing some RPG which might not be as loud as some shooters, is really another experience. While listening to classical music, it's also something else when you hear music only and not your computer whirring.Also, I said this was all subjective experience, as I do sim in summer as in winter, and I can't prove it to you anyhow. I only know that computer and gaming now has temperaturewise much less impact on my room temperature.

I wrote in a thread before even, that physically it's actually impossible to be different. Because as you say, therm is therm. My guess only, I have no other explanation, is that watercooling exchanges temperature much slower (quick on the waterside, slow on the radiator side, since the water temps don't rise as quick as aircooler ones), heating much slower and also cooling down much faster, allowing for less perseptible change and also the room is able to "exchange" the air quicker, no matter if you have windows or a/c.Also, I said this was all subjective experience, as I do sim in summer as in winter, and I can't prove it to you anyhow. I only know that computer and gaming now has temperaturewise much less impact on my room temperature.

Now this part makes sense to me, as long as your rad is big enough, (and yours sure is), larger area to absorb heat and let it go at a slower rate compared to rate of change in the room.I have seen a lot of H20 set ups but have never seen the Rad your sporting, what is that?

The fact is though a fact, water will always kill the air when compared in dB. If you would put my system on the best air there is, I guarantee you, it would be much louder and sound like an aircraft engine when gaming. This way, nothing changes, ever. Why?1) GPU has no fan2) CPU has no fan3) HDDs are closed in the thick boxes that go into 5.25 slots, which has both thick metal casing and also around 1cm of foam and 1cm thick waterblocks on each side of the hdd, keeping it both cool and unhearable, even the loud 10k raptor (for which a bit of modding was needed, an additional foam, to really keep totally quiet)4) Pump is in the similar casing

Sorry, you a running how many Nochtua fans on that? five? On the outside? I have those p12 fans sitting in a box (as well as the Nfs), they are not silent, I wouldnt even consider them quiet and you have five of them well I hope they arte all spinning at less than 600 rpm.Look, I know what you are saying about "aircraft engine noise", like I was trying to say, those days are very much over if you put the right peices together. I have listened to all the so called "quiet" water cooling systems, and this system and many like it, on air will give them all a run for the money. I know you woud like it, it just purrs. When I first saw the pix of your rig I thought it was fanless at first, but I could never deal with that many fans unless you have cut the voltage/rpms.Whish you lived near by, would be happy to demo. I'll see if I can grab a DB meter from work and post a video and some pix sometime. Would like to see more pixs of your rig as well.

Funny you say that. Those P12 are by far the most silent fans I ever owned. I had 3 different sets on the Mora, I think first was from Thermaltake, 2nd were something else (also not cheap) and then I went with P12 - by far the best result. They are working at 7V I think.I bought watercooling years ago, as the aircooling was not as near as good. Right now, it seems like air cooling has much improved.But still, you can't close the drives into a case without some kind of cooling. And I still stand by the opinion, that wc is much easier on the room temp than air.

I have seen a lot of H20 set ups but have never seen the Rad your sporting, what is that?

http://www.watercool.de/online-shop/W

Hey Paul - you can run fans at lower than 12V to achieve silent operation.