Gosta...I'm glad you joined the discussion.... I'm curious about this statement:"As far as free distribution of such a crack goes, recent court decisions would indicate that this is not actionable."Do you have any links supporting that? I'd like to know the circumstances. Here's an example: imagine someone who defeats a reg key system by running code through a debugger. The intent: simple piracy--the desire to run the code throughout an internal WAN, which would cause a loss of approx. $40k in revenue to the distributor. You are saying that's not actionable? I know it is in the US.... The problem with the cracks is they may have a personal, private use for archival purposes, but most often they serve a public, criminal use for pirates. I suspect those making them aren't doing it out of the desire to see our rights to archiving protected. -John

Hi John,>Edit : Every time a key is distributed publicly, the next build incorporates that key and locks down the software involved, and transmits the user information back to my home office.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

Hi John,depending on the nature of the crack, it may well not be actionable - in your example, I would have a look at the fact that the crack generates a key, this may go beyond what's permissible. However, in any case, the piracy itself is a criminal offence - you can certainly go after the person who used the crack for illegal purposes, but not neccessarily after the author of the crack. One of the cases that springs to mind was in Norway a couple of months ago, which dealt with a program circumventing DVD copy protection. This was widely reported in other countries as well - I'll try and find a link for you. Other (civil) cases I know of are from German courts, I'll see if I can find English translations.>I suspect those making them aren't doing it out of the desire to see our rights to archiving protected.:). This is where it becomes somewhat foggy. Recent legislation in Germany, explicitly forbids commercial copying services for media other than paper, i.e. you can open a photocopy shop, but not a CD or DVD copy shop. Although I haven't seen many 'Kinko DVD' shops around, there are businesses that would be affected, for example video shops that convert your camcorder tape to normal VHS etc. How this legislation would affect programs like CloneCD is anyone's guess. Prima facie, I would say that it does not constitute a service (unless it charges on a pay-per-use basis). How this works out in pratice, remains to be seen.In the case of the hacker, you'd have to establish intent, i.e. show that the crack was developed primarily for piracy purposes, then you can go after him, otherwise your legalrecourse will be limited to the person who is using the pirated software. Another thing, it's very important to separate between private and corporate use - as far as businesses go, software companies have a lot more legal powers to regulate the use of their software, and they can prohibit the making of backup copies (an alternative safeguard may be required, such as a service agreement). Consequently, cracks for corporate use are illegal. So, someone who distributes a crack for a software that has no real purpose for individual users (for example, some accounting software that compiles an annual income statement for public companies), may be deemed to act as a pirate.Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg EDIT: I found a link to a BBC report about the Norwegian case, unfortunately the only proper legal documentation I could find was on legal subscription sites, so I can't post the links here.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2635293.stm

Our key system is based on simple info--a unique user name, address, phone number, and one other component which I can't discuss. All that info generates a lock code, which can be phoned or emailed or even snail mailed to our team. We run it through our software and generate a key code.We could have locked it down more, but I don't care for online activation schemes, IP based schemes, or HW key based schemes. In the field I still run into clients running Novell and DOS based apps dating back to the early 90's--businesses don't retool as often as simmers do.Also, I know my customers, and they see any threat to 24x7 ops as reason to go with another provider. Use a HW key, and swap out a mainboard or cpu, and you make a bad issue even worse for someone w/downtime.We do have a "squealer" feature. I didn't code any of this (wouldn't know how), but I did help spec it. Basically, if someone attempts to deploy over multiple workstations by using the same key in an internal WAN, we'll know about it. And we let it happen--for a period of time. After which, one of our sales people calls and says "I see the product's exceeded your expectations" :)

Tom, Fair enough. While I have good intentions and others do I'm sure, I did forget that this renders the copy protection element useless, and others may not want to simply limit their use of the DVD. Anyway, would it be possible to have discussions of where to place the files, without catering to those who want to distribute it or have it for distribution? This may also breach your fine line, but I am curious. BTW, to everyone else, I love a very vigorous well thought out debate any day of the week, and I appreciate all inputs and thoughts that have been expressed.Christopher P4 2.81024 DDRAM800 Bus36 gig SATA hardrive80 gig harddriveATI Radeon 9700 ProCH yoke/pedalsElite Multi quadrant19" inch monitor-Soundblaster PCI 512Win XPInstrument rated ASEL -270 hoursAOPALawyerPilots Bar Association"Men without dreams are never free, twas thus this way and thus will ever be."

Hi John,> After which, one of our sales people calls and says "I see the product's exceeded your expectations" :). I know what you mean about companies not upgrading very often. Some time ago, I found an old HD lying around, and I did a search on the internet to find out how big and how fast it actually was (1.6GB at a speed of 2000rpm or so, can't remember). I was surprised to find some sites still selling them for quite a lot of money (the same price as a 40-60GB 5400rpm HD). The reason was that older computers can't hadle drives bigger than 2GB and a lot of companies still use that hardware, thus there's still a market...Strange, but true :).Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

Do a google search forFlight Simulator 2004 v1.0 [ENGLISH] Fixed EXE

Thank you for saying this. This is something that I have thought about for a long time and I agree with you 100 percent.Ed

For reasons I think Tom has articulated quite clearly, no :) 5 minutes with Google will point you in the right direction.

BRAVO!!!This has been one of the most compelling and well thought out threads I have ever read. After so many of the recent "we need a patch" "this sim is horrible" "what was Microsoft thinking" posts, it is nice to read one that is so heated with no one losing their cool and berating the other posters. At times I am ashamed to be a part of this community with the mudslinging and personal attacks. I am proud to be a part of this thread! BTW - If I ever get into legal trouble, I've made note of who I'd like representing me!EddieKSLC

>The EULA says you cannot copy a disk that has copy>protection, period.>With all due respect Ken, US Federal law states quite clearly that we are entitled to make a copy for archival (safekeeping) purposes. That Federal law supercedes any officious statements in EULA's originating from Redmond. The DRMA passed a few years ago appears to be in conflict with the previous law, which has NOT been amended (at least yet, thank heavens). What surprises me is that there isn't a case in the Supreme Court yet, which specifically addresses that inconsistency. It's needed. Corporations are taking outrageous positions about what they perceive to be their "rights" under the DRMA. (Digital Rights Millenium Act). And claiming I have no right to back up CD #4 for safekeeping is one of those outrageous positions.....MarkP.S. The NO_CD crack is another matter. I'll not discuss it, beyond saying that I agree it is illegal (despite some legitimate FS owners actual NEED for it).

If Avsim doesn't want that information on their sight and someone wants to disseminate it why not just take it to email.