Hi all,Microsoft is currently in New Orleans in a very public way, trying to apply some PR to some of the thorny questions about MS practices. Does this mean Microsoft Flight Simulator 2004 may *finally* receive industry standard support? IT MIGHT BE SO! :---... Ballmer said there are times in any company's existence when it has to stand back and listen and then regard those as defining moments in its evolution. ... "Our action items include improving the patching experience, providing guidance and training" ... "and continuing improving quality" he said.... "We want to get better alignment between you and us and our partners and products. Let's get the alignment that allows us to get more effective and deliver better value to our customers. Let us also be able to better support you"...(all emphasis added by me)http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,4149,1329680,00.asp---FINALLY! It seems Microsoft is addressing our widely voiced concerns here: listening to us as customers, improve the patching experience (ie: supplying one!), providing us better guidance and training, improve the quality, seek better alignment between us as customers and them as sellers, and finally get more effective and deliver better value to us by providing better support! EXCELLENT!Uhhhhhh, oh. Well, shoot. Never mind. Even though this is exactly what we've been requesting here, the above isn't targeted at us - its about their dismal security problems in Windows.Darn. Ah well... We can continue to raise our voices here in the hopes that some of this supposedly renewed "focus" at Microsoft leaks a little our way. After all, it is the sustained vocal call for improvements that caused Microsoft to react to their dismal security record - again.As unbelievable as it sounds, Ballmer actually came right out and basically said Microsoft wishes people would just shut up and be quiet about any problems (no, I'm not kidding - read the article). But, since people haven't and won't, it has forced them to actually do something to fix the problems. This quite firmly reinforces that loud and sustained voices are what really matter at Microsoft (ie: PR - Public Reaction)... Its the only thing that moves them to action. So, lets keep that pressure up here in our demand for them to simply provide industry standard support... In a respectable, but clear manner.Take care,Elrond

Hahaha, that's the best laugh I've had all week.

Hi,I'm not sure how its exactly funny haha, but I'll most certainly give you ironic... Specially considering the conversations that have been happening on this forum the past week or so.Take care,Elrond

Unfortunately, based on other articles that I have read regarding Mr. Ballmer's comments, they are being directed towards Windows XP and Windows 2003 Server. Would gladly be incorrect about this though. :-)

Experts have been telling MS until they are blue in the face that the various iterations of Windows have been flawed with respect to security and nothing approaching improvement has been forthcoming. Now, because some twit representing MS steps forward admitting that the company does indeed need to 'improve' we are to applaud and give credence that the customers' voices are finally being heard? Perhaps this is the case, but I'm not so naive as that. I believe MS is becoming sensitive to being hounded alright, but not by regular folk...more likely by those who have hundreds, if not more, of copies of their OS's and other Windows-dependant software and are fed up with having businesses interupted either by system hacks, or downtime relegated to continuous patching and fixing by administrators.If the hope is that the critisims emanating from the flightsim sites will elicit the same attention, we better round up more signatures than participate here and from far greater income brackets with more clout and influence than the average simmer.

I normally stay away from these one sided attacks on MS, but this is too much to ignore. How about practicing a little accuracy here, Fellas.Your comment:"As unbelievable as it sounds, Ballmer actually came right out and basically said Microsoft wishes people would just shut up and be quiet about any problems (no, I'm not kidding - read the article). But, since people haven't and won't, it has forced them to actually do something to fix the problems. This quite firmly reinforces that loud and sustained voices are what really matter at Microsoft (ie: PR - Public Reaction)... Its the only thing that moves them to action. So, lets keep that pressure up here in our demand for them to simply provide industry standard support... In a respectable, but clear manner"somehow totally missed the point of Ballmer's statement. It was about the indiscriminant publishing of security problems -- by certain groups -- that make a bad problem worse. He didn't say anything about the user not talking. Gimme me a break here.For the record here is the statement from the site you referenced.Ballmer said he wishes the security researchers "would be quiet as that would be better for the world." But that won't happen, he added. "We are trying to work with them on how and when they disclose their information." If ya are gonna bash 'em at least get the facts straight or else your arguments will be ignored.Racartronit means something, but I just can't remember what

Hi,I assure you, what I wrote didn't totally miss the point I was making: it was my point and my statement. I didn't quote Ballmer in the extract you object to as I'm sure you noticed, I summarized. Instead of quoting, I asked the reader to click to the article and read (to decide) for themselves - because his statement is simply unbelievable.Beyond that, who said anything about not wanting "users" to talk? Thats your word you're attributing to me, not mine. His exact quote was, "I wish those people just would be quiet". Notice, "people" is the word I used as well - so I have no idea where you got "users" from.But lets move outside of semantics and your spin. My facts are completely straight. Microsoft wants security researchers - who are people as I'm sure you've guessed - to "be quiet". Why? So Windows flaws and bugs won't be in the headlines. This way, Microsoft can take as long as it wants to fix its flaws and bugs in private - if they, and they alone, deem it necessary. But what about actual customers during all that time?As you might know, this practice is called Security through Obscurity. It is a wholly flawed and discredited practice that has few valid arguments, but mainly benefits public perception of a company that employees it. It does not work because people can't take precautions to protect their systems where they are vulnerable while the flaw goes unpatched. Using this type of non-security, criminals out there have free reign to exploit those flaws while customers are fully ignorant of whats happening (trojans being installed, key loggers being installed, etc, etc, etc).This is exactly why Ballmer and Co. are now touting "Securing the perimeter" with firewalls and the like - so users are protected even while some flaws and exploits are unpatched. How do you know where to spend your energy securing the perimeter (ports and the like) if you don't know a flaw exists? You of course, do not. His statement was nothing more than what I said it was: unbelievable.There are hundreds of examples from the top security researchers in the world that I can quote that fully discredit Security through Obscurity, but this most certainly isn't the place. I'll leave that exercise to you.Take care,Elrond

Hi Barney,I think I must not have made my "tongue in cheek" aspect of the post as clear as I thought. :-)Indeed, I don't expect Flight Sim policies to change in the least because of Ballmer statements or recent Microsoft developments. The only real thing that is clear from the whole exercise is this: Microsoft reacts to its customers when those customers make enough noise.Which is what I hope continues here (in a respectable and enlightened manner) when it comes to MS Game Studios. Hopefully, as problems and concerns get talked about more and more, policy change will be on the minds of those within the halls there.Take care,Elrond

I will believe it when I see it. Microsoft has show itself to be a company not worthy of much respect in the past, and I see that continuing into the future...

Just to keep the flamers away, I'm sure you meant they haven't been worthy of much respect when it comes to security, and not all aspects of Microsoft. If that is the case, I agree to an extent. I do believe the situation has gotten so bad that they will indeed make some much needed changes now that have not been done to date (such as supplying all consumer versions of Windows with minimal services enabled and built-in protection such as firewalls enabled - sooner rather than later).Microsoft does indeed deserve a lot of respect in a lot of areas: and a lot of wary criticism in a lot of other areas. Security, unfortunately, falls in the latter category to date. As does support for its gaming community.Which brings us back to what the point of the thread was really about: that our continued voices can indeed capture MS Game Studio's attention to *our* problems.Take care,Elrond

Hi Elrond,I for one would dearly like to believe that this could be signalling the fact that Microsoft is approaching a vital crossroad in their corporate existence. Taking the wrong turning could well spell disaster, maybe not in the short term, but it WILL happen as inevitably as night follows day. The time is now passing when the customer's desire for a greater sense of partnership with the software developers can be dismissed in the manner which Microsoft has cultivated successfully over so many years.In a previous post I suggested that perhaps AVSIM might consider running a poll on our behalf and Tom Allensworth responded swiftly by inviting me to "write the poll and send it to me (TA) in email, and I will see what we can do. How's that?"There lies my problem and I freely admit the difficulty I am experiencing formulating a statement to which everyone will feel able to respond. I am assuming Tom does not expect me to write the code for a specific poll module but merely wishes me to take on the task of deciding exactly how it should be worded. To have any value, any such poll must attract as much response as possible. It should contain no ambiguities nor should it upset anyone. A simple clear statement is what is needed to which each voter, whether end-user or 3rd party developer, can register his or her reaction by responding 'Yes' or 'No'. It may be that the inclusion of varying strengths of agreement or disagreement in the poll response check boxes would have greater relevance in helping the assigned pollster determine the spread of depth of feeling throughout our community, I'm not sure.This poll, should it take place, will represent a significant milestone for our community and should certainly not be treated frivolously. I am very anxious that this opportunity should not be squandered. Accordingly, I now ask you, and everyone who reads this post, for feedback and suggestions. There is little point proceeding further if we cannot achieve concensus and I do believe any decisions made at this crucial stage should be the direct result of open and democratic discussion.Best regards,Mike

Hi Mike,A poll would be a good idea, but I can't see the feasibility of it being specific enough to address the individual problems people care and talk about here in many threads. What might be useful however is to get reactions from users here to the simple overall idea, such as:--Do you consider improved customer support for patches and direct developer interaction in a proper forum to be a top priority for Flight Simulator's future?YES FOR BOTHYES FOR PATCHESYES FOR DIRECT DEVELOPER INTERACTIONNO FOR BOTH--That would at least give MS Game Studio's an idea of how important or not the related topics of improved support are to its valued and influential "hard core" community (if that is indeed how they see this whole community, I have doubts). Anything more detailed might be too complex to answer in a reasonable fashion without discussion of the specifics such as happens in these threads.Just my quick thought on the subject...Take care,Elrond

>Hi Mike,>>A poll would be a good idea, but I can't see the feasibility>of it being specific enough to address the individual problems>people care and talk about here in many threads. What might>be useful however is to get reactions from users here to the>simple overall idea, such as:>>-->>Do you consider improved customer support for patches>and direct developer interaction in a proper forum to>be a top priority for Flight Simulator's future?>>YES FOR BOTH>YES FOR PATCHES>YES FOR DIRECT DEVELOPER INTERACTION>NO FOR BOTH>>-->>That would at least give MS Game Studio's an idea of how>important or not the related topics of improved support are to>its valued and influential "hard core" community (if that is>indeed how they see this whole community, I have doubts). >Anything more detailed might be too complex to answer in a>reasonable fashion without discussion of the specifics such as>happens in these threads.>>Just my quick thought on the subject...>>Take care,>>ElrondGreat suggestions here!How about another poll as well:Do you feel that FS9 needs a patch?YesNoIf yes what would you like patched/fixed or upgraded in order of importance?1.Flickering menus (though the fix will probably come from video card manufacturers)2.Drastic FPS drop near default airports even sparse ones.3.Autogen performance lag buildup.4.Misplaced and missing bridges.5.graphic enomilies- some that existed in FS8 and still present in FS9- z-buffer confusion/corruption of far clouds (new) in front of near ground objects and some small ground objects flicker (old).6.rivers can be placed more accuratly but not river flattens-spoils any good photorealistic or 3rd party scenery, same for hardcoded coastline edges spoils hires mesh.7.mipmap slider has no effect on terrain texture mips.8.As soon as ANY SDK info is available lets get it out and keep it updated in a timely manner.9.Fog "soup" around mountain areas.10.why cant we feel the wind on our faces? still!!!

>10.why cant we feel the wind on our faces? still!!!well you can actually...get someone who ate a lot of chilli to sit on your monitor...it'll be smelly though,but that'll remind you of the opened can of worms ;-)....

Should I be able to, um, feel the wind through the, um, windscreen ?