Fast real life B777 APP into KIAD

[JSACKS 0]

Once again, I am surprised at the speed of approach paths into KIAD. This is about my fifth arrival into KIAD this year at what I consider to be high speed and it just blows away pre-conceived ideas about a long slow stable approach to landing in a jumbo.Descending in a UA 777 on a flight from EDDF, we pass KIAD hdg 190 at IAS 250 and about 4000'. We continue at this speed until we reach 2200' and then quickly pull back the thrust, throw out flaps, and a few moments later bank right for the 180 back to KIAD 1L not more than about 6 nm behind us. Looking down out the window as we bank, the houses look rather large and our speed is seemingly breathtaking as we throw out more flaps, gear, and then stabilize quickly for final.Short final felt too fast (not the first time I've felt this way!) and we were either zero pitch or slightly nose down. I felt our VS was too high and we landed with quite a Whump!Today, whilst exiting COSTCO on West Ox Road, I looked up to see an Air France 777 fairly hurtling on hdg 190 and about 2000' up or so into KIAD. My wife, who normally has NO interest in flying or planes, caught her breath as we followed the big beauty around the start of its 180 turn. It was truly stunning.I've commented on this before but I continue to be surprised how they bring in the big 'uns at this speed and especially at such a low ALT.What's the big deal about "long, slow, stable" approaches ?!JS

[Guest B52Drivr]

Dear JS,I think, given the option, most commericial pilots would like a sort of in between approach; not too fast, not too slow . . .sort of what we use to call the 'Goldilocks' approach. But, given the amount of traffic today, time schedules, bad weather and problems ATC has with other aircraft, what was once your average, nice and easy standard approach is now anything but."Delta 1274, (757), increase speed to two-two-five, you have a four seven on your tail . . ""Citation zero-one-mike-vic, reduce speed to one-three-five, or you'll have that Cessna 172 as your new radar dome . . .""US Air three-three-four, turn left taxiway Delta NOW! . . .before you play 'Bigfoot' with that Mooney."These are a few of the calls from ATC I have heard just from Dayton International when I lived in the Dayton area many years ago, and it's only gotten worse. Yes, they are funny, but serious . . . the skies are getting more crowded every day . . . and ATC can't turn back the slider on 'traffic' like we can, nor can they hit reset flight! In another respect, we have alot of ex and current military pilots shuttling around passengers now a days. Some who just have come back from combat duty . . . they may deny it, but after flying Uncle Sammy's crotch rockets for six months, its really hard to get back into the swing of 'nice and slow'.Personally, I'll take a pilot who comes in a bit hot over one who hangs right at 'listed' approach speed any day. But I guess thats the adventurer in me. I know Air Transport Pilots are suppose to do it 'by the numbers' every time, time and time again, but it just doesn't work that way in our current world . . . anything from an emergency situation, to air traffic, tired ATC guys, (who really have a tough job) or a malfunctioning aircraft determin what the approach speed is on a daily basis. Fortunately, for most, the talent, good judgment and understanding of their aircraft make it mostly, nothing more than a bumpy landing . . . you see fewer and fewer 'greasers' today.Best to all,Clayton T. DopkeMajor,USAF (retired)"Drac"

[JSACKS 0]

Drac:Very insightful reply, thanks!JS

[Guest Stamatis]

" . . . anything from an emergency situation, to air traffic, tired ATC guys, (who really have a tough job) or a malfunctioning aircraft determin what the approach speed is"All the above is fine, except when the runway available is close to the runway required. In such a case, you better arrange to be close to Vref over the threshold, otherwise you may be in for some nasty surprises.Samatis

[Guest N247BK]

I recently flew into KIAD in a UAL777 from London's Heathrow.I watched the airspeed indicator on the cabin display monitor most of the trip down the East coast of the US and into KIAD.I was startled at our indicator showing 150 kts while on downwind and during the hard base turn to final.I have been in and out of KIAD in some strong cross winds, and believe that may explain some of the higher speeds on approach.

[Guest Stamatis]

Firstly, I believe the cabin indication is Groundspeed, not Airspeed, but I may be wrong. Regardless, a KIAS of 150 kts for a B777 is hardly what I would call high speed for approach.Stamatis

[CactusDx 0]

All the above is fine, except when the runway available is close to the runway required Even with short runways (Orange County California/KSNA comes to mind) we can't plan to takeoff at a weight greater than what would allow a full stop within 60% (+15% if its expected to be wet) of the effective runway length at the destination airport (FAR 121.195).But, at any rate I would tend to agree that carrying extra airspeed above Vref isn't always desirable. Mike CKPHX

[Guest simtech]

150kts is average for a B777 depending on weight, of course. I'm always surprised just how slow the B777 can be flown. I have countless hours in a level "D" 777 sim (Flightsafety) and am still amazed at how stable it was at that speed. The CRJ-200 averages just a few knots less!!!And, of course, as mentioned before, speed depends on a lot of factors. "A good landing is any landing you can walk away from...... a great landing is any landing that you can use the airplane again"

[Guest N247BK]

As a member of this flight sim community, I know how easy it is for us to venture (sometimes quite far) from the subject at hand.However, the approach speeds into KIAD, be it 150 kts or mph, in a B777 probably represents a lower cross-wind approach than the numbers shown in the initial post.Lastly, with my statement, Stamatis, I can only assume you are in agreement. The "150" does represent a value significantly less than the numbers in the initial post, no?

[Guest Blue Ridge Dx]

Hey all,Saw some interesting posts here and just wanted to peak my head in. Someone mentioned Dayton, thats my home town ;). I just moved to IAD for my new job, and when landing on 19L in VMC conditions, nearly every aircraft will turn base over my crashpad. That puts them on about a 1.5 mile final. Not what I'd call unstabilized, but fun nonetheless.While jumpseating back into IAD last week, we flew a 'modified' base leg for a visual to 1R. It was the F/O's leg to fly, and this guy threw out flaps 40 and gear about 2 miles out. Then proceeded to fly at the threshold at about a 30deg angle. We rolled out of the turn over the threshold about the time the captain called "50 feet, REF+20". We planted it about 2800ft down the runway. Vref for the CRJ at our weight was like 166kt. We were fast and unstabilized, and it was fun :) . I haden't realized that the CRJ is a Cat D airplane for landing minimums.Anyway, about IAD, we frequently use the HYPER1 and JASEN3 arrivals. If I remember right, the JASEN3 brings you in over DRUZZ then GILBY. A/c usualy depart GILBY on a 190 heading at 4000' (as the gentleman above noted). This puts you on a downwind for 1L. sometimes they'll keep you in close, and you get 'slam dunked'. That is, you've got to get everything slung out, and really work to get the jet down. That might be what you experienced.BTW, I transit Old Ox Rd. every day to get to work. Are you from the area?Best Regards,Nick Blue Ridge Dx

[Jay R 0]

Not to put down other posts, but, this post is the most refreshing and interesting post I have read in awhile.Thanks guys.

http://www.forefrontgrp.com/jayssigsmall.jpg"There is an art . . . to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss!"

[vgbaron 3,726]

>>Not to put down other posts, but, this post is the most>refreshing and interesting post I have read in awhile.>>Thanks guys.I agree. That's because we're discussing flying, not "i get 40fps, what do you get" or "I don't have a FS9.CFG file" posts.Enjoyable -

[Guest oyvindhansen]

Great thread! We should enjoy it before it is moved to the hangar chat forum. - Oyvind

[JSACKS 0]

Ryan:I have conversion factors worked out mentally for putting things into FS-speak (!) I agree, the 777 does actually approach slowly, sometimes remarkably so. On my first super-long range 777 flight into Dubai, our final was done at 139 mph (figure out the IAS of that!)But the approach into KIAD the other day was definitely at a zero to minus-something pitch. I could feel the pilot pushing the jet to get us down; and incidentally on a prior, similar UA 777 approach onto the same runway (and it was 1R, not 1L, sorry), I saw the mph INCREASE by about 8 during the last 200 vertical feet.I've been on a fair number of 777 flights by now and a good approach and landing feels great in that plane. Those giant fans whoosh you in and you land with a pouf! But there have also been harder landings, like a horrible landing at EDDF where the 777 just seemed to fall onto the runway with a WHAM! after a shaky, yawing approach in heavy x-winds.Thanks for jumping in. This has been a good "flying" thread.JS

[JSACKS 0]

Nick:I live in McLean these days and I really like KIAD. It's a great field. (I grew up in London and know Heathrow like the back of my hand.)I think I may have been on one of those slam-dunk approaches into KIAD 1L. It was similar to what I described in the initial post but we turned to 1L earlier and cut across doing a weird 180 that was more like a 140 or 150, turning to final at around 1500', throwing out full flaps and gear during the turn. When we straightened out, we were at about 1200'. It was a busy affair and at first I thought the driver would miss the field, but we stabilized quickly and even had time to enjoy the view before making a good touchdown.JS