I was approaching my destination airport from the north to land on RWY 24 at an airport with a control tower. RC4 ATC vectored me to proceed downwind on a course of 60 deg. My question relates to how long and how far they kept me on the downwind leg. It seemed, for a single-engine a/c, it was quite a long distance. I would say it was at least 15-20 miles from the end of the RWY before the Controller turned me on to the base leg. There wasn't that much AI traffic in the area. Nothing out of the ordinary. The wx was VFR, few clouds and moderate wind from the west.I've always thought that the stock FSX ATC would have me going too far from the airport on the downwind leg when I was on an IFR approach, but RC4 also seems to vector me too far from the airport when either A: my initial approach is perpendicular to the airport, or B: I'm approaching the landing rwy from the reciprocal direction. Of course, weather permitting, there is always the option to request a visual approach, which speeds up the landing procedure quite a bit. What would be realistic leg distances, assuming the above conditions? Thanks.Bob

From page 55 in the RC manual:--------------------Short FinalApproach turns you to downwind. “Ugh. Do I really have to get so far out from the airport?” You can ask Approach for a Short Final, an early turn onto base/final anytime while on their downwind legs. Short final is available on the Menu Display page 2. Approach will accommodate this request according to traffic load. Get out your geometry books. You are on downwind with 12 miles showing in your DME and you have already passed the airport. You make the Short Final request and it is approved. You are turned 90° to base heading directly perpendicular to the localizer. Your DME shows you getting closer and closer to the field. You should not expect to intercept the localizer at 12 miles out, but in this case maybe 8 miles or even closer. This is a learned tool, to be sure. It is very easy, very tempting to make this request too early; early enough that overshooting the localizer is almost guaranteed. Remember, the localizer is a "cone", very narrow at the runway expanding as you get further from the threshold.------------------------There's more to this so please read this whole topic.

Ron, brings up some good points and very valid, sure glad he is on the beta team. In addition to what Ron said, remember a short final for a single engine Cessna 172 is not the same as one for a MD11 or B747. Something else for us to think about in the next version.Bob

Is there a good rule of thumb for all the times we fly into unmanned airports (without ATC coverage)? Isn't it something like " On downwind leg, at 1500 ft, start your turn to base one minute after passing the RW threshold. Be at 1000ft AGL for turn to final."? And wouldn't that be applicable for aircraft of any size?

From page 55 in the RC manual:--------------------Short FinalApproach turns you to downwind. “Ugh. Do I really have to get so far out from the airport?” You can ask Approach for a Short Final, an early turn onto base/final anytime while on their downwind legs. Short final is available on the Menu Display page 2. Approach will accommodate this request according to traffic load. Get out your geometry books. You are on downwind with 12 miles showing in your DME and you have already passed the airport. You make the Short Final request and it is approved. You are turned 90° to base heading directly perpendicular to the localizer. Your DME shows you getting closer and closer to the field. You should not expect to intercept the localizer at 12 miles out, but in this case maybe 8 miles or even closer. This is a learned tool, to be sure. It is very easy, very tempting to make this request too early; early enough that overshooting the localizer is almost guaranteed. Remember, the localizer is a "cone", very narrow at the runway expanding as you get further from the threshold.------------------------There's more to this so please read this whole topic.

Excellent information Ron, thanks. I had overlooked the "short final" option. Another reason why RC is such an outstanding program. (BTW, the short final info is on page 57 of the manual...at least it is on the copy I have).

Disregarding wind components, the distance traveled for different type aircraft varies according to airspeed required. Putting pattern geometry based on time differs in the resulting aircraft position in the pattern referenced to ground.If you look at approach plates for IFR horizontal plane position and altitude (AGL) are specified where initial approach fixes are specified.You must be able to turn correctly and descend correctly to put you in the proper place so in the case of an ILS the GS is above you when you intersect on final.A good example are some holding patterns and procedure turns. You may see two patterns of each based on usually Class A and B for one and Class C and D for another, the latter pair requiring the larger pattern. The classes refer to safe minimum speeds of the type of aircraft for best maneuvering. Notice on an approach chart how the decision altitudes increase with the class of aircraft performance.A single prop lighter aircraft can perform tight turns at a slower airspeed utilizing a smaller pattern.At many airports ATC will clear an aircraft when conditions allow it for a visual approach and pilots prefer it because less distance is traveled in the pattern. In this visual case the turn to base is approximately when the threshold is 45 degrees to the rear and the turn to final is about 45 degrees to the front of your aircraft wing direction. In other words turns are initiated on geometric reference, not time. Controllers may request you adjust speed to accommodate aircraft separation. If a controller estimates you will not merge safely into the landing queue you may be asked to extend your downwind.In IFR conditions the pilot's ability to see and avoid is not dependable and traffic congestion increased in such conditions requiring controllers to use extended downwinds to achieve separation but the conditions are not right for shortcuts and longer finals are to be expected to allow safe merging of the flow and "duc ks in a row" separation.

Is there a good rule of thumb for all the times we fly into unmanned airports (without ATC coverage)? Isn't it something like " On downwind leg, at 1500 ft, start your turn to base one minute after passing the RW threshold. Be at 1000ft AGL for turn to final."? And wouldn't that be applicable for aircraft of any size?