The U.N. and War on Terrorism

[Sonar5 3]

Well, I checked my email. Empty. Checked my inbox. Empty, so I guess this is the preferred method of discussing this by the moderator. Fair Enough.As to my tone, and my debate tactics. They are mine, and I will not change them. If you feel you need to take action, by all means do so. Like you said. "YOU HAVE THE POWER", Right. I am not questioning that, I agree with the fact that you have the power as moderator, and I am glad you appreciate it by writing these posts. I respect all of the moderators here, Braun. Period.********************As to your post above:Well, Braun, we will have to just agree to disagree.Your tone is ok, but not mine, eh? Ok I see now. Others tone is ok as well, right. Ok. I understand. You are right and I am wrong.*** I apologize to anyone that felt offended by the truth that I have printed in this thread. ***And the person calling posters fanatics in Post #7 by Stephan was ok too, right? Ok I Understand now.There you go Braun, Happy days are here again. And My Integrity is in tact. That's it. Nothing else to comment on, no assumptions or statements. The End. :-)That is why I watch Fox News. They have a mantra there."Fair & Balanced" I kind of like that phrase.You Have a Nice Friday Braun,Joe :-wavehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Sonar5 3]

I Disagree Braun,You said:"There is some smoke around our current leadership concerning business dealings of the past, that much is evident. Is there fire? Don't know, but usually, "where there is smoke..."Please be more specific and clear in this statement as to what business dealings have smoke. Are you referring to Tom Daschle, The Leader of the Senate and his misdealings, or something else.Regards,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Sonar5 3]

You said:"Now we seek to liberate Iraq, but we do not carry that coalition."I disagree with that statement as many countries have already formed a coalition and the United States has already garnered their support. So please be more specific in exactly what you are referring to.You Said:"If we choose to attack Iraq alone I fear we are doomed to failure. We may win the war, but we will not win the battle."Nope, I disagree, that statement is pure hyperbole and conjecture on your part, and I believe you have no facts or eveidence to justify that statement.Of course I could be wrong, and if I am, I will apologize, but I await the facts.You Said:"But as much as I would like to see Iraq's despotic maniac of a leader leave the planet, I will not accept vigilantism, no more than I would accept it against a murderer in my own town. I weep no tears for Saddam. He is evil incarnite. But law is law, and if we act out of vengance, not law...then we are no better than he is."Nope, I disagree with that statement as well. We are acting out of law. Please research all of the prior UN Resolutions already applicable to this situation. They cover what we can do and I say we can already go in there without any further justification. That is what the UN says. FACTS.You said:"Today I pray for the victims of September 11. For the people of this planet who suffer under the rule of tyrnany and despotism. For those who's only knowledge is fear. I pray the world may come together, united as one, in goodness and strength against an evil that has lived as long as time."I Agree 100% up to this part. The rest I disagree with.Thanks Braun,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Guest]

Hi," agree with most posters that something must be done about Iraq, if not now, certainly in the not too distant future. Like many Americans, I am not really concerned with the opinions of the rest of the world. While the US has made its mistake in foreign policies, history shows the Pax Americana has generally been in the interests of what is right and good for the civilized world."I just fell off my chair when I hear this.I really hope this is not as most Americans think,but I'm afraid many do though.Joe,I'm afraid I have to strongly disagree (again :) ) with you.You say you only tell facts and truth and at the same time you ask people to prove their opinions.That's ridicilous.Fox won't always give you facts sir.Fox will give "facts" that the American people like.I've never seen a more biassed press than the American press.I completely agree with James.If you disagree with some-one,you ask him to apologize because he "was wrong".e.g. the person who obviously gave facts in this post:http://ftp.avsim.com/cgi-bin/dcforum/dcboard.cgi?az=read_count&om=985&forum=DCForumID6&viewmode=allAlso read this please: http://www.gwbush.com/messages/2002/02-19.htmlYou then just say he has to look at the present situation.Those are also facts,real numbers,or aren't they?I really agree Sadam must disappear,with or without breaking a U.N resolution:Iraq has clearly violated many U.N resolutions.But to attack Iraq to only "defend" America,is ridiculous,again stating "we're the best in the world".This should be in interest of the entire world,like Blair and Bush said.In an post on flightsim I belive,you say:""Who said The United States invented Democracy. My Country, The United States of America is a republic operating a democracy. We didn't invent it. We're just a grand experiment in civilization. History will decide our success with our intepretations."Gosta is in my humble opinion completely right.Go out in the world and discover the real world instead off letting you being brainwashed by that d*mned American patriosm.I read everything you wrote in these 3 topics and was just shocked by moments.It just gave me confirmation of what I thought.Please don't take this post personally,just regard it a strong disagreement on opinions.

[LawnDart 19]

War *is* hell, but sometimes, war is the only language corrupt leaders like Saddam understand.To my knowledge, the Kurds did not officially declare war on Saddam, but look what happened to them...Hell has many faces... we would do well to recognize them before they recognize us.Semper Fi~Ray Sotkiewicz'82-'93VMFP-3, 3rdMAW, El Toro CA

[Guest SoarPics]

No, Seba, this is not how most Americans think. Please understand that what was written in that post could have just as easily been written by anyone else from any other country. I'd like to believe it was an expression of frustration.I would ask that you not judge Americans, or any nationality for that matter, by what a few may write.Thanks,

[Guest]

Greg,I want to believe this could be a rare case,but he clearly said it as it obviously was his opinion;not an expression of frustration.

[Guest SoarPics]

I see your point, but hope such is not the case. At any rate it would be a mistake to think most Americans share that perspective.We don't.

[Guest Fortress]

>ever since 9/11 everyone has been all gung-ho about war. Since when was war a good thing? War is hell, and I hope there isn't one. I guess I am one of the few to stand on the side of the UN on this one.I'm with you on this one N212NW. Do I feel empathy with the 'typical' US citizen? Yes! Can I sympathise? Yes! Am I English, but more than half of family US? Yes!Two quotes immediately spring to mind:"Fools rush in....", and perhaps more cerebrally:"All our ignorance brings us closer to death" (TS Elliott).I was speaking tonight to my cousin who works for BA. He has a great deal of sympathy for the US (and - perhaps more importantly - an absolute hatred of Middle Eastern despotism) and 'hopes' for an Iraqi war. I stated "but what about your job if a war kicks off?" He said "the job's (gone)", but he'd have no problem if the Iraqi regimen were "taken to task" .... (expletives deleted) but the only way to "tame the Middle East is to place pro-US governments in all the different states". He went on to describe his expectations of any conflict to take considerable time and to spread out to include neighbouring Arabic states. I would state that my cousin is no ordinary Joe, having a degree in Modern History (not a US High School degree, but a real one ;-))& two Masters degrees in Middle Eastern Development and History & Western Strategic Military History, and a PhD in Modern Conventional Warfare Tactics. I consider his thoughts as being rational, considered, and knowledgeable. I actually read to him some posts from this thread - especially those indicating some historic events and 'evidence' to which he stated "well, those people aren't worth talking to", but I'll leave it to your imagination to whom he was referring. His point is, that although he considers the 'typical' US citizens' view of world military history as being warped by their own self-importance, the attack of Iraq (ruling regime, not populous) and deposition on the current ruling elite as being right, fair, and welcome.My quotes come from a fear that any attack on Iraq (although perhaps justified) are being planned out of anger and without proper regard for the longer-term implication. Considering BA; they have just been relegated out of the FTSE100 index and Rod Eddington is on record as saying that they 'just' avoided bankruptcy post-911 - despite having cash reserves of several billion GBP. AA and UA are fairing no better (UA possibly worse). An Iraqi war will kick BA hard, but what of AA/UA? Anyone given them any thought?Paul

http://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/Fortress.gifVoted Best Virtual Airline of 2002 and Best CEO of 2002 by participants in the BIG VA Vote organized by FSPILOT.comVANF "Best" New Virtual Airline AwardOfficially licenced by British Airways plc for use of name and logohttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/saint_georgex1.gif

[Guest]

Joe...this is the last response I will make to you on this topic. As Fox news O'Reilly sez...we'll let the viewers decide.1. Well, I checked my email. Empty. Checked my inbox. Empty, so I guess this is the preferred method of discussing this by the moderator. Fair Enough.I chose to respond publically, because you chose to write to me publically. Simple enough.2. And the person calling posters fanatics in Post #7 by Stephan was ok too, right? Ok I Understand now.You would be correct in saying that it was wrong for Stephan to use that term in his text...it got by me at first as he is responding to Paul and asking Paul which fanatics he refers to. I did not see his "closing comment" under his signature. So, if you want an appology from me saying that I should have told Stephan to knock it off, I give it freely:I'm sorry JoeKnock off the name calling StephanI would have done that had I understood your point better. OTOH, I must again offer to you that:A: If you look at the tone of your replies.B: The extremes that you are taking this to over the fact that I, as a moderator, merely told you to watch your tone and keep it civil.C: While at the same time I warned everyone else.D: With all of that said, I again suggest that we put this behind us, move on with life, and keep it nice in the forums or the forums will not allow us to post on topics such as these. That would be a great loss for everyone.Cheers,bt

[Sonar5 3]

Hi Seba,No offense taken, :-) Opinions are great. and Thanks for the response.Since you brought up b1900, I will respond here.) I will not subscribe to Financial Times to view an archive.) GWbush . com is a known Democratic Liberal Support site. And they don't hide that fact.) The other link to Salon is invalid. It does not work anymore for that article. I believe salon is no more. Wonder why?From This link:http://gwbush.com/spots/postpage.html) The Washington Post article lists supposed confidential UN Documents. If these are from a United States company, surely a Freedom of Information act request, or a review of their 10k would have produced some documents. They are from French companies, and I am not familiar with their filings.That article said:This:"Two former senior executives of the Halliburton subsidiaries say that, as far as they knew, there was no policy against doing business with Iraq. One of the executives also says that although he never spoke directly to Cheney about the Iraqi contracts, he is certain Cheney knew about them."What former executives. These guys would have been all over the news shows by now. But of course, it is probably a massive conspiracy involving thousands of people. There are always people willing to turncoat at every opportunity. Look at Ritter. :-)And this:"We inherited two joint ventures with Ingersoll-Rand that were selling some parts into Iraq," Cheney explained, "but we divested ourselves of those interests."So on that point, I apologize to b1900 but it should be noted that these were INHERITED SUBSIDIARIES, and not the parent company. The two companies were:1)Ingersoll Dresser Pump Co. 49% Minority Stake2)Dresser Rand 51% Majority Stake When researched, the companies were sold off. Should the mother ship have caught it. Yes. Were they Illegal under UN Resolutions. Appearantly not, as it was mentioned in this article that they were not.I am now curious about the other percentage holders. Were they investigated as well?Appearantly, through the article, the companies in question were French affiliates. Were they fully investigated as well?We all know that CEO's in my country do not know every detail going on in their company. Especially with regards to contracts. Should they. I say it is most likely impossible. Would be nice, but something like this could be nickpicked all day long.That should be fair to all concerned.I'll also post this in the other thread.Regards,Joe

[Guest]

nicely said Paul

[Guest]

Hi Ray,Now THATS a sentiment I can get behind. While I am a pacifist by upbringing, sometimes war is indeed the only language some understand and will respect. While I avoided a fight as best I could as a child, I sure as heck didn't avoid one to the detriment of myself, friends or family. For some, a fight is the only way to resolve problems - its our duty to understand when that is, even as we try all other avenues.While I don't agree with the "all of a sudden" urgency of this current Iraq problem (politics are playing a lot more here than it should in my opinion), I have no doubt its going to have to come down to it sooner or later... I couldn't agree more with you: its remarkably clear that war is the only language Saddam, unfortunately, understands.I do believe, however, that the UN should be given this final chance (and time) to express its powers it has been failing to exert on Iraq. A strong and United Nations, one with a resolve to fight *if necessary* as an absolute last resort, makes this world a MUCH safer place to live - and more peaceful. But if the UN repeatedly fails to enforce its resolutions and avoids a fight when its clear nothing else has worked, it becomes an ineffectual talking head. The time came to get serious towards Iraq when the inspectors left out of frustration three to four years ago and weren't allowed back (!!), in complete disregard to the ceace fire they signed to end the war. The UN repeatedly shunned the responsibility to enforce its resolutions for a variety of singularly good reasons (this includes the United States)... But taken as a whole, these reasons have proven to be ... not nearly good enough.Take care,Elrondhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/Boycott-RIAA.gif]"A musician without the RIAA, is like a fish without a bicycle."[/font://http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/B...cle."[/b][/font://http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/B...cle."[/b][/font

[Sonar5 3]

See, Now we're all happy again. And I apologize to you as well. For the record. I did feel the need to respond since you listed it here first.That is why I sent a copy to your inbox. :-)I would have been pleased if you responded to my inbox, but no biggie. It is solved.Water under the bridge, so to speak.I hope you have a quiet weekend. :-)Regards,Joe

[Guest]

Fair enough. Disagreement is what makes this democracy we live in the vibrant, alive place that it is.You have the right to disagree with me, and I in turn with you. We can discuss it publicly without fear of interference or retribution...which is exactly what our enemies, cannot do. I would suggest that is one of the core issues that lie at the heart of our disagreement with much of that part of the world.Regards,bt