Hello,Can someone explain me these two? First of all, I know what STAR is, but yesterday on the flight to Gatwick, I was offered over the FMC different transtition. I was ordered to use WILLO3C STAR for approach, and the PMDG FMC asked for TRANS. And there were few transitions... like WILLO, MAY etc. So, now I was pretty confused what is this for and why use it at the first place?? Can someone please shed some light on this? Thx :)

There is probably someone a whole lot more knowledgable than me, but this is what I understand it to be.I would be inclinded to say you wanted to use the "WILLO" transition, as this is the nav aid that is present in the STAR you were using, "WILLO3C", I think the transition is either the first part of the STAR, OR, the Nav aid previous to the STAR.Again, I might be talking out of my backside, hopefully someone with the right knowledge could tell us both LOL.Dan.

Yeah, that would seem logical to me too, although I did set WILLO Transition, which then provided me wich some very very weird routing (some strange here and there circle, which would really made lots of PAX sick *lol*), so what I did then was made my own, which probably isn't realistical...

>Hello,>>Can someone explain me these two? First of all, I know what>STAR is, but yesterday on the flight to Gatwick, I was offered>over the FMC different transtition. I was ordered to use>WILLO3C STAR for approach, and the PMDG FMC asked for TRANS.>And there were few transitions... like WILLO, MAY etc. So, now>I was pretty confused what is this for and why use it at the>first place?? Can someone please shed some light on this? Thx>:)A Transition is basically a route that branches to/from and airway to the main trunk route of the SID/STAR.(ie transitioning off the airway to the STAR)On most Sid/Star charts the Transition line will tend to be thinner and less bold than the line used to depict the main SID/STAR route.http://www.fsbuild.com/dl/jvl4.jpgIn most of the UK I don't believe they use Transitions, but rather they give each branch/route a separate identifier (ie WILLO1D,WILLO3C). The effect is basically the same as the transition though.http://www.fsbuild.com/dl/willostar.jpgThe Trans request in PMDG may have something to do with how the STAR file was compiled by its creator (perhaps it was a user created STAR file for use with PMDG ?).Regards.Ernie.

I'm not familiar with how FMC's manage transitions or very experienced with flying STAR transitions per se, but I do know that when FS allows me to choose a specific transition for an approach I've chosen, I am cleared to fly direct to the NAVAID after which the transition has been named and proceed with a teardrop or other necessary maneuver to begin flying to the IAF specified on the approach plate.Quick example, choosing the Linden Transition for the ILS RWY 32 into KOKV (Winchester, VA, USA) prompts ATC to give vectors to Linden VOR (LDN) and clearance to proceed with the approach per the plate once I arrive at LDN.http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/published_pdfs/05251I32.PDFDon't know how this plays out with STAR transitions for sure, but I've seen similar ATC behavior on the few flights where I've tried them. Foot near mouth with a chaser in hand...Hope this helps,Kevin

Ernie, thanks for the great explanation. So I guess, basically, if you use a STAR like WILLO3C, then you don't need the transition, because it's already there...I guess there are approaches that have this identifier you mentioned, like "3C" or there's a simple STAR WILLO for runway blah blah, with transition WILLO for airway wherever you're coming from...Think I got it :) Thx again!

Kevin: Using your example we're talking apples and oranges. Looking at the IAP Casanova, Jasen and Cladd are initial approach fixes (IAF). Linden is a cross reference for points on the final approach (cladd, ceder and cogan)although you can take Linden to Cladd.If you were to use a FMC this would be part of the approach data for ILS 32 not the STAR. The STAR gets you to the approach phase.

Roger that, Lamont. I'm with you. From my limited instrument flying experience and knowledge, I was trying to help Dan and Word Not Allowed get a little closer to their answer by affirming that a transition precedes the approach (or STAR?) with which it is associated. Emphasis on trying because I do have a lot to learn. Thanks for the helpful information with this particular plate, as it's close to home... ;-)Happy flying,Kevin

It's very nice to see that people here learn from each other, I really respect this community.Thanks, Kevin!

Kevin:I don't know how busy OKV is but there's an outside chance if you approach the powers that be, ie airport manager, right you might wrangle a way to the tower just to see how the approaches are generally done there. Then you can compare it to the chart and really put everything in place.If you can't get a tower visit, maybe there's a flight instructor that may be willing to give you some pointers about the field and various approaches.

OKV isn't even busy enough to have a tower, unfortunately, but there are some business charters and quite a few GA folks making their rounds (enough to keep my three boys' heads pointed up with mine at the hint of an airplane engine :-)). I have a long-time friend who is a retired 737, 727, 747, 777 captain (United) who hangars a 172 and a J-3 here. He'll be able to explain those approaches in pretty good detail after we're done fishing, I'm sure, but I'm doing a lot of homework before I "approach" him with my toughest questions - if for no other reason than being able to understand and apply his answers. Thanks for the suggestions, Lamont. Glad there are folks who know the tough stuff and are willing to share it.Word Not Allowed, I love this aviation stuff too much to let it rest. I've gotta learn somehow, somewhere, and these forums are great for it. The minute I think I know too much, I'm invoking an adage from my pilot friend above:"A know-it-all pilot is a lonely one if not soon a dead one.":-)Kevin

Your pilot friend's quote can apply to life in general. So true. Good luck in your quests.

Hello,Transisions as a provedure are also known as "RNAV Transistions" here in Germany. They are in use at larger airports, and they are implemented in 2 different ways:1) They replace the conventional STAR (for example at EDDF)2) The are preceeeded by a STAR (i.e. in EDDM, EDDT or EDDP).RNAV Transistions, as their name implies, require RNAV capabilities and they are primarily intended to handle large amounts of traffic. They all follow the same design principle, namely to bring inbound traffic to a downwind pattern near the airport (usually about 5nm) and to allow departures to cross the downwind below to avoid delays in climb. Here are 2 examples (charts can be downloaded at http://www.vacc-sag.org).1) Transistions at EDDFIn EDDF transistions replace conventional STARs, which will never be flown in real-life. The transistions start at the clearance limits (OSMAX, OTKUR, GED, PSA) and end at the final approach fix (FAF), from wehre they are followed by the final apporach (ILS, NDB/DME etc.). Transistions include a lateral track and a vertical profile with speed and altitude restrictions, but normally traffic is only cleared for the transistion (lateral) while speed and altitude is under "manual" ATC control. 2) Transistion at EDDM:In EDDM the situation is somewhat different as we see a mix of STARs and transistions there. For example the WLD5M STAR starts at WLD and leads to ROKIL (the clearance limit) from where a RNAV transision as previously described follows which leads to the FAF. So traffic there will get a clearace like "After WLD follow WLD5M arrival, thereafter ROKIL26R transistion". If you are arriving to EDDM from the northeast via LANDU intersection, the situation is like EDDF, the transistion starts at LANDU alternatively to the STAR.I hope this added to the confusion *evilgrin*. Feel free to ask any further questions.Yours,Martin Georg/EDDFVACC-SAG PR & Events Coordinator *** mailto:[email protected]http://vatsim.pilotmedia.fi/statusindicato...r=SAG01&a=a.jpg

Hardly added to any confusion, after checking the charts, all is clear! Thanks very much! I just advanced my approaches and will be flying (maybe) today to either EDDM or EDDF, depending where's ATC, if any, somewhere in the evening (prolly round 18-19h).Cya there!

Well,wether or not you will actually fly a transistion online also very much depends on the respective controller. I know lot