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Tom Allensworth

#### - I am right to say what Avsim says about him?

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Today, 6/25/03, I posted in this thread, located in the FS Main Forum:[a href=http://forums.avsim.com/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=121&topic_id=118286&mesg_id=118286&page=]#### 737-XXXliverys[/a]In which I offered my viewpoint about ####'s repaint policy. I also said Peter Tishma was a crook. The moderator for the FS forum, JP, edited my post and told me to refrain from name calling.Now, lets step back and consider the facts. He(Mr. Peter Tishma of WAS, PT, ####, etc etc) went to court, and from what I understand was convicted of stealing works of other FS authors. Sounds like being a crook. Avsim itself said that Mr. Tishma stole things in this article:[a href=http://www.avsim.com/pages/0902/pt_again.html]AVSIM Investigation: Here we go again ....[/a]This is the relevant quote: "This is the same person who has literally stolen works from a variety of authors and organizations, including Graham Waterfield and Bob Kirkland of PSS fame. There are too many others to list, but we are quite confident that some of the "old timers" in the hobby can recall more than a few"So, by my understanding, calling Mr. Tishma a crook is not libel, or slander(which ever one is written non-true abuse, I can never remember), or 'name calling.' Calling Mr. Tishma a crook is the same as saying 'Mr. Tishma stole things from other people.' Am I wrong?I understand that I am not free to say whatever I like in these forums. I understand that I am subject to the wishes of the moderators in the forums. I also understand that I am subjected to the Avsim Forum Rules, and I agreed to these when I signed up on this forum(lo, those many many moons ago.) I accept this. But I feel that my post did not violate the avsim rules, because I was stating a fact. A fact that avsim itself has said in it's reporting of the going-ons on Peter Tishma. I feel that my post was unfairly edited. Can I please understand where my views are wrong concerning the editing of my post so that in the future I do not commit so grevious a violation of the Avsim Rules.Thank you sirs.

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BTW, I didn't swear in my posts, I said A-r-i-a-n-e and apparently the forum software is bleeping that out. :-roll

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Hi Fred,as far as defamation goes, slander is in transitory form, libel is in more permanent form. So, which term is appropriate in your situation, depends on how transitory a forum post is... :)Hope that clears it up.Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

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Thanks for the explanation Gosta :)I have seen several of your posts in which you speak very inteligently about legal issues, which makes me wonder if you are a lawyer. :)Anyway, I do appreciate learning from what you post :-beerchug

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Hi Fred,>which makes me wonder if you are a lawyer.:) But I'm about to take a sabbatical in the autumn for two years to study electrical engineering (Avionics), so it will be all about transponders, nav radios etc. for me then... :).Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

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Thank you sir for clarifying. I do not wish to critize you, because I feel that you are doing a good job at moderating. I was just curious as to why you edited my post. :)

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I did not feel as though you were criticizing me, I didn

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Fred....Don't blame Avsim for your post being pulled--blame me.You know I don't love a-r-i-a-n-e-s methods. But once we start deciding it's OK to label people crooks, or thieves, or any one of another million things, our credibility as a community is threatened. I think we should stick to citing actions, and not name calling. I know that some lawyers think such posts pose no threat to Avsim or our community. But sometimes, it's the threat of paperwork that is enough to kill off a thriving website. I've seen lawyers take on my company knowing they'd lose for certain, just to see if they could get us to settle so we don't have to divert legal resources (we have our own in-house legal team). And sometimes, even knowing we'd win, we'd settle anyway.I just don't think our words should ever put Avsim (from whom all blessings flow) in that plight. In the past week, I've seen three posts that I feel could have placed Avsim at that risk, or even those participating in the threads.I've sent in an alert in all three cases, and have left it to the moderators to decide.-John

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John,>Fred....>>Don't blame Avsim for your post being pulled--blame me.I wasn't questing the fact that the post got pulled(if I gave that impression I was wrong), I was wondering what caused the editing of my post in said thread. Obviously my post was construed as against the rules in some form or fashion, else JP wouldn't have pulled it. :) My post being edited has been explained to me and I understand, and I will be a good little avsim user now ;-) I disagree with the reasoning, but thats the breaks eh? ;-)>You know I don't love a-r-i-a-n-e-s methods. Really, you don't? ;-) ;-)>But once we>start deciding it's OK to label people crooks, or thieves, or>any one of another million things, our credibility as a>community is threatened. I think we should stick to citing>actions, and not name calling. Your very right. But, isn't calling someone a 'crook' the same as saying 'he stole something'? I feel it is the same, but your mileage may vary ;-)>I just don't think our words should ever put Avsim (from whom>all blessings flow) in that plight. In the past week, I've>seen three posts that I feel could have placed Avsim at that>risk, or even those participating in the threads.Your right, anything we do/say at this website should not put the Avsim institution at risk. But, again, is stating facts putting avsim at risk? Facts that Avsim itself has reported?I respect your opinion and await your response. :)

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Fred,I guess my response is I see your point too... I am curious, since Avsim did report its findings on A*r*i*a*n*e, why threads are often pulled when it's discussed with even a slight negative slant. I tried not to jump into Wednesday's thread, but sometimes I think the positive posts conveniently gloss over the issues I've raised, as well as some that Toni has raised. And I felt I had to respond, as I did today to Martin's post which suggested that A+r+i+a+n+e had all its liveries available at the discounted price, something which wasn't true. Oh well, something to wonder about....-John

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"I am curious, since Avsim did report its findings on A*r*i*a*n*e, why threads are often pulled when it's discussed with even a slight negative slant."Frankly John, it is because the issue has been beat to death and, each time the subject comes up, it quickly devolves in to a slamming match. We are getting to the point where anytime we see the word "Ariane", we are going to start removing them without even thinking about it.EDIT: and now I am locking this thread.

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