Confessions of an ex-game pirate

[Guest Ken_Salter]

Hey guys, excuse me for stepping in, but this seems to heading off topic...http://saltydogfly2.avsim.net/images/avsim_sig.jpg

[Guest sbdwag]

I dont understand what the big deal is about FSD's Wrapper. Ive intalled all of my purchased versions of the FSD Products serveral times in the last two years. I had a motherboard that crashed my system and I ghosted the operating system and then reinstalled Flight simulator at lease six times in the last two years. And not once did I ever receive a knock on the door from any Developer. FSD's wrapper is not as intrusive as many other companys so it appears to me to be a vendetta going on here by some. Do you own Radar Contact any of the Project Magenta, Captain Sim, or PMDG products at least when you purchase from FSD you dont have to wait hours or days to recieve your keys. Me personally I dont have serious problems with any wrappers that give me my purchase immediately and does not ask me to reapply for a new key everytime I change something. But Unlike FSD's Wrapper I have drawn a line in my own sandbox on some other Developers who believe its ok to make you wait several days for you key and then expect you to ask for new keys if you so much as look crosseyed at your computer. They can keep their software.FSD knows that for Every one purchase of their products there were at least five stolen copies out there. Perhaps were are seeing alot of outcry here because FSD's wrapper HAS been effective at preventing the theves from getting their grubby hands on their planes.I certainly hope so. Dennis Waggoner

[Guest wathomas777]

Thank you Steve for you fine and thoughtful answer.My, name, is William, by the way.I also appreciate the well thought out answers you have provided.I do have some points of contention with your answer, but you have been more than fair with your time.You said "Well, in that case we have already the measures in place. If developing loses it's remaining appeal we certainly will NOT insult all our customers by dumping all our products into the freeware file libraries unprotected as an avionics developer recently did : to do that would be a monumental insult to all honest folks who have supported us. "I find this quite disturbing. You customers paid for a license to "use" your product, and while you are solbant, they did get exclusive use of that product. If you are not going to be in business any more, what harm is it to make your works available to all? Is this just to ease the blow to your customers? There have been countless classic games that have been produced that have been lost to the public because of this attitude. I enjoyed many games such as M.U.L.E., and the original Gunship that I would LOVE to find in the public domain. I have paid for both of these games, but would not begrudge anyone from enjoying them since the original developer is no longer supporting them. I just glad the works of Beethoven, Mozart, and Strauss didn't die with them because we didn't want to insult the honest kings and queens that paid for their commissioning.You also said that the licenses are not transferrable and illegal in most countries. If that is the case, then I guess stores such as Software ETC and the like are violating law by selling "used" computer games. I have never seen that it is illegal to transfer the license. In fact, on the other hand, I have seen it in most EULA's that the license CAN be transferred as long as all the original documentation and media is transferred as well. (Also as long as the program is deleted from the hard drive). Perhaps this is not possible with your software, especially if it is available only in a download. But if you ever distribute in CD format it seems to me that a non-transferrable license is a little harsh.Overall, I wish you luck in your endeavors, and hope that you continue to do the work you do. Working technical support I know how vitally important customer relations are and how fragile they are.Thank you for the time and your attention..

[Guest SoarPics]

Tim,Your efforts to make this personal will not work, but we'll deal with that in a moment.You are burdened with two very different issues here. One is the ethical issue (protecting your copy rights), the other a business issue (preserving the privacy and convenience of your customers. Simply put: Happy customers=customers that buy). We, the customers, have it much easier. We can take a stand with you to fight the thieves and protect your rights (which an overwhelming percentage of us here choose to do, because you are our fellow simmers and doing so protects you and our shared hobby). At the same time, we can choose to protect our privacy and convenience by NOT purchasing.For us, there is no required risk... but sadly, it isn't that pleasant for you. You must balance the ethical issues (protecting your copy rights) with the survival of your business (the assurance to your customers that their privacy and convenience is not compromised, therefore making it easier for them to reach for their credit cards with confidence). The developer who can do both and offer a great product (which FSD surely does) will succeed. Those who don't will suffer.Now to this matter of my Commander upgrade. In my previous post I took great pains to assure anyone who reads this post that the failure to install certainly WAS NOT because of a lack of effort on the parts of you, Steve, and myself. I made it clear that the decision to cease efforts was mine, not FSD's. I did not at that time ask for a refund, nor am I now. In fact, if you'll recall my final e-mail to you, I thanked you for your tireless efforts and that I would look forward to purchasing the Navajo when it is released. There were no hard feelings here (especially over $7.50. Considering all the FREE contributions FSD has made to our hobby, and the great value of your products, I still feel like I'm money ahead). I was more concerned about the cost in time to both of us in trying to make the install successful. With regard to which of our systems was at fault... I never gave that any thought. Until a few days ago, when I learned more about the machine binding technology. And to be frank, I still don't care why the install failed. Simply put, I have more important things to worry about. It was not an issue then, and it is not an issue now.Finally, I sense that you and Steve are becoming increasingly frustrated with this discourse. And I sense that you believe I have some hidden agenda against FSD. I certainly do not, but I will take my leave now (I believe I've done all I can do to make my points clear). Should you feel compelled to withdraw all of my FSD licences (that hidden agenda issue), I will upon receipt of an e-mail directing me to do so promtly remove your products (including all freeware) from my hardrive, and destroy my FSD backup CD in a final effort to protect your copy rights (payware and freeware). Furthermore, any effort on the part of FSD to refund any moneys from my past purchases will not be acceptable. I will simply move the funds back to your account (yes, I can do this easily though my own business), until all we accomplish is to line our banker's pockets with transaction fees. My involvement in this discussion was never about a measily $7.50... it was about trying to find a solution to benefit both the developer and the customer. Together. As I said earlier, I got my moneys worth and then some.To the moderators... I apologize for causing any trouble. My sole intention was to partake in a discussion and debate about matters that I believe are very important to many of us here. Nothing more.Done beating a dead horse... I'm back to work now,

[Guest sbdwag]

Soarpic What was the point of this entire tirade againts FSD if not a vedetta. Their wrapper is no more and even less intrusive than many of the other developers wrappers. When all they are trying to do is protect themselves and stay in business.You talk the big talk but I fail to see your point. Over the last several post you have been telling us how FSD is not running their business right. You may be imminently qualified but I dont see any Commanders's, Cheyenne'ss, Seneca's, T-38's, or the future products already being built coming from you or any other company that have the consistant quality that FSD has. I suggest to you that FSD IS doing it right if fact I suggest to you that they are very successfull at what they do and will continue to be. Other that trying to shine a pale light on a company that has made many positive contributions to the hobby the we all benefit from your post have little content. Your take your toys and leave attitude leads me to believe that even though you and your business attempt to signify an adult aura you still are haunted by many childlike atributes. Someone said in another post that there are customers that we can live without. I believe you would probable fit in this catagoryDennis Waggoner (Thats my real name)

[Guest JeanLuc_]

Hi Bob,More than this, what I think should be added in here, that is often not only forgotten but misunderstood, is that any FS vendor are far far smaller in sales revenue than any other of the examples you have given. Also, despite the usual picture of the hacker we all understand as seen from these threads, you forget that the most important piracy factor vendors are suffering from is not the hacker which trade cracks and serial numbers of the most popular add-ons on warez sites (and other places under close watch), but it is the one who is what I will call the "casual pirate", which in turn is the friend next door who is given a copy of the software, and will not make the effort having it installed on his hard drive and playing with it, to purchase a license.I know many developpers are having another job, but a significant number is also feeding their famillies in working a lot in designing the latest cutting edge add-on. I don't know many individual in this business who is not spending less than 12 hours a day on this, and often 7 days a week. Given the small size of this market, and besides any pride hurt in having his product pirated, there really are two problems here in my opinion closely related:1) up to what point piracy will in turn make individuals close their FS business, because of the lower revenue (casual hacker wise as desribed above), in order to seek a job elsewhere?2) how long, we as users, will be able to enjoy more than the default included in the stock FS box if vendors close their business because of piracy?Whatever the protection method in use (and please don't flame, nothing is static in this market and everything evolve from customer feedback), it is also our interest as customers and users in the way it is securing our long term expectations about our hobby. Simply put: I'll find FS really boring if none of the commercial add-ons were available to fully expand it, and I also understand that none of these add-ons would be available if their authors could not secure the illegal distribution of there software.I think we owe all FSD a strong apologize because our attitude has not been this constructive so far, mine included in not having taken more time sooner in trying to offer some additional insights in these threads. But at the same time I have enough time to at least think I've understood something: what is clear to me in these threads is that they get emmotionaly intense because we don't share the same language and definition of the actual piracy threat to FS vendors. I don't blame anyone though, as many of the relevant background information about piracy, for obvious reasons, is not shared in public; for most users, piracy is understood from what is often read or seen about piracy of corporate software, or games (blockbuster games). But in the FS world, because it is a tiny market, highly specialized and technically complex, piracy and the hacker are not of the same "flavor". And this is why many decisions or counter measures in the FS world are not carbon copied from what is done to fight piracy of titles like Windows XP or Unreal Tournament.And this is just a shame on our hobby in my opinion, that so many threads bashing FSD started just because of a private email correspondance, which should not have been published publicly in the first place for the sake of the respect of privacy. In turn, for the sake of of protecting privacy (not divulging personal information about one's computer to FSD), a private email between FSD and a customer was used?!?! There is definitively something I don't get here, as one of the principles I've been told very young, is that you don't use evil methods to fight the evil, or you are evil yourself.FSD is a highly aclaimed Aircraft Simulation vendor for the quality of their offering, and the extreme care taken to recreate the best flying and experience with their unique expertise in flight models. Unless we don't care about our hobby, we surely (at least I) would do all our best they stay long in this business for our enjoyment. Because really, there is not that many alternative offers if they disappear. It is not like you don't like Turbo Tax, you purchase Quicken Tax or Faster Tax. There simply are not alternatives to what they do, as often is the case with several vendors offering in this market.Hope this helps!

[maxter 0]

Gerg,I am truely confused. Your apparent concern for the longevity of the FSD product carries no consistency with your position in respect of "privacy" and the so called "intrusiveness" of the FSD licensing system.Given that FSD's system (that you find so much of a problem with) apparently does nothing more than record a small string of characters identifying a specific computer, I must conclude that you carry out no transactions whatsoever electronically such as purchasing with a credit card, electronic funds withdrawal etc. where much greater amounts of information is not only collected, but analysed and then on sold for use by other organisations.Even more confusing is that there are many out there that will gladly use their credit card to purchase FS stuff off the 'net and will at the same time cry foul when infantestimally smaller pieces of information are recorded for the purpose of avoiding theft or stealing.I have re-installed the Seneca V many times over the last three weeks as I had a problem with another piece of software that constantly screwed my MSFS installation and I didn't have a single problem with it. The original poster according to the FSD guys exhibited a pattern of installations that in my own opinion was extremely suspect and I applaud their stance in taking action against the individual. I would have done exactly the same were I in that position.It never ceases to amaze me the overwhelming percentage of people that find software theft acceptable (not refering to you Greg). I ofter wonder if those same people would have the same view if something they crafted were to be stolen and reproduced with no limits.Unfortunately FSD have copped a lot of flack for being a first mover in this area. I fear that the need for this type of protection will only become greater, not less and the level of intrusion will be deeper. It is a sad fact of life. Who would have thought that I would have to installed a monitored security system on my own house in an average middle class suburb in Australia.Best regards, Chris Porter:-outtaWestern AustraliaIntel Pentium IV 3.0GHz (800FSB) Socket 478 pins CPU w/Hyper-Thread Technology MSI 875P NEO FIS2R, AGP 8X, i875P ICH5R Chipset with Gigiabit LanKingmax 512MB PC3200 Double Data Rate (DDR) RAM CAS-2.5- 400MHz Rated x 2BUILT By ATI (Original) Radeon 9800PRO w/TV Out & DVI 128Meg DDRTEAC DV-W50E, 4x DVD-R/ 2x RW, 16xCD-R, 8xCD-RW, 16xDVD, 32x CD-ROM Internal Drive Only Western Digital Raptor 36.0GB HDD IDE, 8MB Cache, 5.2ms, 10,000rpm , S-ATA, w/DataLifeguard WD 40Gig HD for dataATX 470W Pentium IV Power Supply CESkyhawk Jupiter Aluminum CaseHyundai -ImageQuest P910 , 19" Multi-Scan Digital MonitorHercules Game Theater XP, 6.1 speakers Dolby

[Guest SoarPics]

Hi Chris,I had intended to stay out of this fiasco, but I must be doing something wrong in explaining myself. So I'll try again.The recent threads here concerning this "security and convenience" issue is proof positive that many consumers are uncomfortable with the current methodoligies of fighting piracy. You and others may find such methods acceptable, and I ackowledge you your right to do so. I, and many others, don't care for such methods.My point in all this is that developers (big, and small... in and out of this hobby) need to make an effort to fight the battle against theft WITHOUT compromising the privacy and convenience of their honest customers.This is my perspective as a businessman. Simple as that. No hidden agendas. The developer that can offer their customers a safe (as in non-intrusive) and easy way to purchase will be huge money ahead of their competitors.Those who say "This is the way it is in life today, like it or lump it" are the folks who will get left behind in the dust. Many consumers (especially in niche markets like ours) will reply to such ideology by keeping their money in their pockets. Until somebody builds a better mouse trap that is private and convenient.Cheers,

[Guest wathomas777]

Part of the criticism lobbied against FSD was not lobbied because we don't want them to succeed.It is to the contrary. The method they use for their anti-piracy protection is expensive. And it the long run, my guess is, it is prohibitively so.It is because I WANT small market developers to succeed, that I try to bring both sides of the issue. The developers of all this "anti-piracy" software want the scare you into how much money your using, so that you (as a developer) can buy their product. What I am asking FSD, and other small developers is to honestly look at the costs both, monetarily and otherwise, that both piracy, and the fight to control it entails.Microsoft can afford Hardware Binding. I don't have a problem with it. I hope FSD can as well. However, If they CAN'T, afford it, then what was the purpose?I also have a problem with a company that will not allow me to transfer a license. If I should be bored of flight simulation and give everything I have to my friend or to my own son, I believe that is my right.The point is. FSD has made a business decision, that many of us feel hurts honest customers. We also feel that this decision will come back to bite FSD in the long term. We have voiced our concerns in hopes that FSD will re-evaluate their position. If I DIDN'T care, I would remain silent on the subject, and refuse to purchase anything they make. As it is, I am vocal on the subject, in hopes that they will look into alternative means.As a simmer working with multiple versions of Flight Simulator, you should be keenly aware of the danger of just accepting "the status quo" and doing nothing. If the simming community had just "rolled over" when FS98 and FS2K came out, would we have FS2002 and FS2004 as good as they are now.It is active dialog with the developer, and sometimes some good old fashioned honest criticism that helps improve a product.