Hi,Does anyone of you guys, girls have some experience with the Avro Shackleton Mk3v1 from (http://www.shackletonproject.co.za/) Project Shackleton?http://www.shackletonproject.co.za/assets/...shots/shot1.jpgHow good does it's 2d/3d panel look, how many systems are simulated or is it just eyecandy? How does it fly? Thanks in advance :)Rob de VriesThe Netherlands

Rob, she flies beautifully, and the outside model looks very good indeed. Ever since I got her, she's been my default aircraft. She truly is a delight to fly, especially at treetop height, or rather "wavetop" height.The panels/VC are a different matter though. The VC isn't too bad, as long as you bear in mind that the designer (Eden) apparently based it on the same misinterpretation of photographs as the 2D panel designer (Maurri) did. The VC can be lived with, though. Although I must admit that I took out a hex editor and removed it...However, the 2D main panel is simply substandard, as the result of either a lazy attitude or a flawed "design philosopy", namely: if it's photoreal, it's good. Which is not true: photoreal is only the beginning of the designers artistic work. The panel is simply flung together from several photographs taken from several different angles and hence showing several different perspectives. Nothing wrong with that, for that's how most 2D panels are conceived. However, Sav Maurri has failed to put the finishing touch to his collage, not having manually/artistically INTEGRATED the different perspectives into one perspective as seen from the pilots eyes. The result is that some buttons and switches are seen from the right, others from the left, and so on... in a lot of faulty perspectives that makes the sensitive eye water (grin)! In fact the panels perspectives have at least four different "vanishing points", probably even more, but these four are the ones I corrected in my own update of the panel. I also corrected several other things, related to the difference between real pilots view and sim pilots view.And that's where the brown stuff began hitting the fan. I got kicked off the Shack forum for criticizing the panel, and got the firm admonition never to post or publish my revised panel anywhere, anyway, anytime. Well, if they're not interested in variations on a theme, that's fair enough with me.So I am happily flying my own Shack Mk3 panel with much better instrument visibility, much better pilots position, much better perspectives and many more options than the original one, and shrugging my shoulders about the Shack guys attitude.Rob, they should have asked Jan Visser to make that panel. Or they should have insisted that Maurri actually FINISHED his work, before marketing the aircraft. Conclusion: the Shack is a joy to fly (I rarely fly anything else), but you should be prepared to use FSPanelStudio and a paint program to correct at least the most glaring mistakes and anomalies in the 2D main panel. For (if you might have wanted it - grin!) you can't have mine: the Shack guys have closed the road to that.Have fun, and be well!Jaap Verduijn.

sounds are pretty good aswell.

totally agree with everything Jaap said.. she's loves to hug the waves ;) some VC panel shots here (again ok but could be better).. with it's "flaws" love it anyway :)... (to mods. please move post if necessary)http://forums.avsim.net/user_files/95813.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/95814.jpghttp://forums.avsim.net/user_files/95815.jpgBrianAMD64 3200 - MSI K8N Neo Platinum NForce3 - ASUS RADEON 9800XT - SB AUDIGY 2 - 1GB CORSAIR XMS - XP PRO EXCL. SP2

"(...) sounds are pretty good as well (...)"Oh yes, that "Griffon growl" is beautiful! I also enjoy the starting-up sounds, it's a pleasure to hear them come to life!Jaap.

Hey guys this honest and thorough commentary is much appreciated!I'll think I'm gonna buy it :) Rob "Holland&Holland" de Vries http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Flying.gif"To go up, pull the stick back. To go down, pull the stick back harder"

>The panels/VC are a different matter though. The VC isn't too>bad, as long as you bear in mind that the designer (Eden)>apparently based it on the same misinterpretation of>photographs as the 2D panel designer (Maurri) did. >>However, the 2D main panel is simply substandard, as the>result of either a lazy attitude or a flawed "design>philosopy", namely: if it's photoreal, it's good. Which is not>true: photoreal is only the beginning of the designers>artistic work. The panel is simply flung together from several>photographs taken from several different angles and hence>showing several different perspectives. Nothing wrong with>that, for that's how most 2D panels are conceived. However,>Sav Maurri has failed to put the finishing touch to his>collage, not having manually/artistically INTEGRATED the>different perspectives into one perspective as seen from the>pilots eyes. The result is that some buttons and switches are>seen from the right, others from the left, and so on... in a>lot of faulty perspectives that makes the sensitive eye water>(grin)! In fact the panels perspectives have at least four>different "vanishing points", probably even more, but these>four are the ones I corrected in my own update of the panel. I>also corrected several other things, related to the difference>between real pilots view and sim pilots view.>So I am happily flying my own Shack Mk3 panel with much better>instrument visibility, much better pilots position, much>better perspectives and many more options than the original>one, and shrugging my shoulders about the Shack guys>attitude.>>Rob, they should have asked Jan Visser to make that panel. Or>they should have insisted that Maurri actually FINISHED his>work, before marketing the aircraft. >Conclusion: the Shack is a joy to fly (I rarely fly anything>else), but you should be prepared to use FSPanelStudio and a>paint program to correct at least the most glaring mistakes>and anomalies in the 2D main panel. For (if you might have>wanted it - grin!) you can't have mine: the Shack guys have>closed the road to that.Now its my turn!Right - Jab - have ever actually BEEN in side a shack? have you ever actually FLOWN in a shack? Its amazing that the ONLY person to have said anything bad about the Mk3 is Jab - some one who has never ever actually flown on a shack! Many of the guys that have bought it is ex shack crew and they have only been praising it! I work with the worlds only flying shackleton day in and day out and the panel is 100% right. I actually went back to the aircraft, sat in the pilot seat and looked at what Jab said about it.. i really didnt see it.Rob, Jab felt that the panel should be more modern so he added some arb switches to the panel inplace of the real shack ones that we have in the aircraft. I am sorry that you had the hear what he had to say about as nothing that he has said is actually true. The Shackleton Projects Mk3 was test flown by the worlds ONLY type rated mk3 pilots and they did have a few things to say about the panel, we then fixxed it and they said it is SPOT ON! The flight dynamics is 99% real (other 1% is FS being up to its old tricks) Here is a few panel shots...http://www.shackletonproject.co.za/images/...nal/Image20.jpghttp://www.shackletonproject.co.za/images/...nal/Image24.jpghttp://www.shackletonproject.co.za/images/...nal/Image25.jpg

Henk, it's easy for you to lie about the differences in panels, because you have (as copyrightholder of the Shack) explicitly forbidden me to publish screenshots, and even summoned me to remove some that appeared on this forum months ago.Now look, guys, at the yellow/black fire panel on Henk's first picture. Below the point where the second and third round feathering buttons touch each other, you see a little dark red light sticking out of the panel. This light is photographed from the right, while the pilot looks at it from the left. WRONG perspective! And it would have been so incredibly easy for designer Maurri to correct! It took me less than five minutes.Directly left of the yellow/black fire panel you see two toggle switches, protected by halfmoon shaped guards. From the pilots position one looks at these toggles and guards from the left, but Sav Maurri had them photographed from the right, didn't correct this when compiling his collage, so again we're looking at stuff from the completely wrong perspective.Look at the row of toggle switches at the bottom of the panel. Henk, don't you even SEE that the perspective of the righthand side toggles is wrong? Don't you even SEE that, from the pilots position, the leftmost toggle and the rightmost toggle can NEVER have the same perspective? The panel is full of this sort of carelesness - these are only some of the easiest correctable ones.If, as you say, the real life Shack pilot says that THIS is exactly how he sees his panel in front of him in real life, he should see an ophtalmologist and stop flying. Because there's something very wrong with his eyes.Your Shack addon is a wonderful aircraft to fly, but your arrogant attitude of "we do not make mistakes" is kind of worrying.Be, nevertheless, well!Jaap Verduijn.

Jaap, I think you are wrong.Look at this photo > http://www.airliners.net/open.file/405795/L/You will see that it is taken for a perspective of look from the pilot side to the co-pilot side.From that perspective you can see that the items you talk about are "straight-on".Now imagine turning your head to the front of the plane, you will now see that those things you mention are in the right perspective.To be honest with you, given the choice of trusted Henk's judgement, who flies and works around the Shack all day, or you, some guy in a sim forum, I think I know who I tend to believe.Dan.

However one question remained unanswered, how realistic is the Shack with regard to systems? Are the buttons merely eyecandy or can it be used to do some 'procedural' training, in league with say NAAM DC3 or better Aeroworx King Air 200?Thanks again! Rob "Holland&Holland" de Vries http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Flying.gif"To go up, pull the stick back. To go down, pull the stick back harder"

Dan, I know that photo, in fact I downloaded it months ago. It is a good illustration of what I have been trying to explain all along, namely that "photoreal" is extremely misleading, and without corrections simply not good enough when you make a flightsim panel. In the limited space of a Shack cockpit the photographer needs to use a wide-angle lens in order to photograph an area that is somewhat larger than a ladies handkerchief. The price you pay for wide-angle photography is distortion, especially in an extreme case like this where the photographer has not more than about three feet to "stand back" from his subject (the panel). What you see in this picture is not what the human eye would see from the same position, but what the camera with a wide-angle lens saw.If you don't believe me, ask Jan Visser or Bill Rambow (grin)!Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

Many (indeed MOST) buttons/switches on the various panels work indeed! I mapped quite a lot of them to my steadily expanding battery of GoFlight units, and it's a pleasure to use all those toggles and buttons!Be well!Jaap.

Thx Jaap!Rob "Holland&Holland" de Vries http://www.emotipad.com/emoticons/Flying.gif"To go up, pull the stick back. To go down, pull the stick back harder"

Ja - iedere knop werkt. Veel mensen zijn al verrast vooral met de knoppen van de brandstoftankYou can either go thru the whole start-up procedure or use the FS shortcuts. Just be warned that once you touch the fuel tank selector switches you have to change tanks as they get emptier or your engines will stop. Also note that the auto pilot is as per the real shack. 1st have the select the power, then the axis that you wish to control and then the actual autopilot on switch.

HenkAfter reading this post, I finally decided to buy it, and I must say: Sweet! I love it, harmonizes perfectly with my CH yoke and pedals, the sounds are great, and the 2D cockpit and VC are very nice. A couple of times I thought I was in the 2D, and wanted to change to the VC, after switching views, I found myself in flyby mode, cos what I'd been looking at WAS the VC already!The only thing I've been able to find is that you can't switch between normal and UV cockpit lighting in the VC, the switch moves, but nothing happens. A detail, it works fine in 2D.Apart from that, I'm very pleased, just the thing for a few hours cruising around the North Sea like the real RAF ones used to do. In my time in the RAF (I was stationed at RAF Coningsby on a Phantom squadron, 226OCU) I blagged a flight in one once, and after nearly 12 hours in it, I was deaf for a week afterwards, although I still managed to go to sleep during the flight!RegardsGrahame (EDHL)