I have a few questions on flying in high altitude airports such as KLAS.  When going to airports with high terrain, you should always use NOTAMS, right?  Should I change the MSA according to the approach charts or should I leave the default setting.  I also was hearing an IAP may be good for some of these, but sometimes the approach chart will have a holding pattern or some other procedure turn on it.  One other thing if you don't mind.  Airports like KABQ have two ILSs and all others are RNAV RNP approaches.  Should these types of approaches be doable with the default GPS?  KPSP also has no ILS approaches, just VOR and RNP approaches.  I'm kind quite sure how to handle these certain airports.  Thanks in advance.  

RC only knows about average terrain derived from MSAs in the quadrants surrounding an airport. Look at a VFR sectional and note how the MSAs are written for each quadrant in hundreds of feet. The RC database came from an outside source. It is not specifically high altitude where NOTAMS are recommended, but where the terrain/topography  varies a lot around the airport. Approaches in Peru and Chile through coastal mountains are through "valley corridors" that must be followed to avoid obstructions. Same in some of the European Alps locations.

 

RNAV approaches are through defined global waypoints or local custom ones. In the FS flight plan they have a label and coordinates just like any other waypoint. Where an instrument approach may define a waypoint has the intersection of two VOR radials or DME on a radial, a published RNAV chart just has waypoints with local or global labels created as necessary. The RNAV approaches were developed for more advanced navigation like GPS or FMC type controls where all waypoints in their database are labeled and the coordinates are fed into the navigation system from the system database. These are included in AIRAC database subscriptions which are published for various nav equipment manufacturers formats to be loaded into their systems. AIRAC digital only formats using RNAV are available but also can contain data using RAW data (ILS, VOR, etc.). At this moment the RNAV specific data name escapes me.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeronautical_Information_Publication

 

This STAR for Zurich has local waypoints (not unique globally) defined such as ZH626 from the KEILP transition.

 

Since your created/exported FS plan has a waypoint label and coordinates, it should show up in the GPS. As previously discussed the FS database itself for its planner needs to be updated with the AIRAC waypoint list so the labels will show up in the planner when entered and then in the GPS.

 

http://www.aero.sors.fr/ for those not familiar with this source.

 

An RNAV waypoint can be defined anywhere by coordinates and navigated by GPS and more coarsely by IRS (Inertial Reference System based on gyroscopic technology) used as backup. Prior to GPS reception, IRS data was used for oceanic crossings with calibration of the system at posted departure positions with labeled coordinates and enroute if needed by astronomical navigation fixes.

 

Here is an FSX plan that uses BLM-2G which includes local waypoint ZH677 as shown on the LSZH STAR:

 

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="Windows-1252"?>

<SimBase.Document Type="AceXML" version="1,0">
    <Descr>AceXML Document</Descr>
    <FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
        <Title>EGSS to LSZH</Title>
        <FPType>IFR</FPType>
        <RouteType>HighAlt</RouteType>
        <CruisingAlt>37000</CruisingAlt>
        <DepartureID>EGSS</DepartureID>
        <DepartureLLA>N51° 53' 05.00" , E00° 14' 05.00",</DepartureLLA>
        <DestinationID>LSZH</DestinationID>
        <DestinationLLA>N47° 27' 29.00" , E08° 32' 53.00",</DestinationLLA>
        <Descr>EGSS, LSZH</Descr>
        <DeparturePosition>16</DeparturePosition>
        <DepartureName>LONDON/STANSTED</DepartureName>
        <DestinationName>ZURICH</DestinationName>
        <AppVersion>
            <AppVersionMajor>10</AppVersionMajor>
            <AppVersionBuild>60905</AppVersionBuild>
        </AppVersion>
        <ATCWaypoint id="EGSS">
             <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N51° 53' 05.00",E00° 14' 05.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>EGSS</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="WESUL">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N51° 40' 14.00",E00° 29' 08.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>WESUL</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="FERIT">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N51° 37' 59.00",E00° 32' 21.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>FERIT</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="GILDA">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N51° 36' 06.00",E00° 35' 00.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>GILDA</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="KOPUL">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N51° 32' 31.00",E01° 08' 13.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>KOPUL</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="TEBRA">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N51° 29' 20.00",E01° 36' 42.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>TEBRA</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="RAPIX">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N51° 26' 35.00",E02° 00' 00.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>RAPIX</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="DIBLI">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N51° 24' 42.00",E02° 15' 45.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>DIBLI</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="BULAM">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N51° 21' 08.00",E02° 45' 01.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>BULAM</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="LUMEN">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N51° 16' 10.00",E03° 24' 23.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>LUMEN</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="DENUT">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N51° 14' 10.00",E03° 39' 27.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>DENUT</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="BUB">
             <ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N50° 54' 08.00",E04° 32' 17.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>BUB</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="ROUSY">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N49° 28' 35.00",E06° 06' 54.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>ROUSY</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="GTQ">
             <ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N48° 59' 11.00",E06° 42' 58.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>GTQ</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="BAMEV">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N47° 50' 07.00",E07° 23' 05.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>BAMEV</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="BLM">
             <ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N47° 37' 58.00",E07° 29' 58.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>BLM</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="ZH677">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N47° 34' 37.00",E07° 44' 12.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>ZH677</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="GIPOL">
             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N47° 30' 19.00",E08° 02' 26.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>GIPOL</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="LSZH">
             <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
             <WorldPosition>N47° 27' 29.00",E08° 32' 53.00",</WorldPosition>
             <ICAO>
                 <ICAOIdent>LSZH</ICAOIdent>
             </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
    </FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
</SimBase.Document>

  from London Stansted distance 451 nm that you can try using the default GPS. This is an RNAV STAR.

RC only knows about average terrain derived from MSAs in the quadrants surrounding an airport. Look at a VFR sectional and note how the MSAs are written for each quadrant in hundreds of feet. The RC database came from an outside source. It is not specifically high altitude where NOTAMS are recommended, but where the terrain/topography  varies a lot around the airport. Approaches in Peru and Chile through coastal mountains are through "valley corridors" that must be followed to avoid obstructions. Same in some of the European Alps locations.

 

RNAV approaches are through defined global waypoints or local custom ones. In the FS flight plan they have a label and coordinates just like any other waypoint. Where an instrument approach may define a waypoint has the intersection of two VOR radials or DME on a radial, a published RNAV chart just has waypoints with local or global labels created as necessary. The RNAV approaches were developed for more advanced navigation like GPS or FMC type controls where all waypoints in their database are labeled and the coordinates are fed into the navigation system from the system database. These are included in AIRAC database subscriptions which are published for various nav equipment manufacturers formats to be loaded into their systems. AIRAC digital only formats using RNAV are available but also can contain data using RAW data (ILS, VOR, etc.). At this moment the RNAV specific data name escapes me.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeronautical_Information_Publication

 

This STAR for Zurich has local waypoints (not unique globally) defined such as ZH626 from the KEILP transition.

 

Since your created/exported FS plan has a waypoint label and coordinates, it should show up in the GPS. As previously discussed the FS database itself for its planner needs to be updated with the AIRAC waypoint list so the labels will show up in the planner when entered and then in the GPS.

 

http://www.aero.sors.fr/ for those not familiar with this source.

 

An RNAV waypoint can be defined anywhere by coordinates and navigated by GPS and more coarsely by IRS (Inertial Reference System based on gyroscopic technology) used as backup. Prior to GPS reception, IRS data was used for oceanic crossings with calibration of the system at posted departure positions with labeled coordinates and enroute if needed by astronomical navigation fixes.

 

Here is an FSX plan that uses BLM-2G which includes local waypoint ZH677 as shown on the LSZH STAR:

 

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="Windows-1252"?>

 

<SimBase.Document Type="AceXML" version="1,0">

    <Descr>AceXML Document</Descr>

    <FlightPlan.FlightPlan>

        <Title>EGSS to LSZH</Title>

        <FPType>IFR</FPType>

        <RouteType>HighAlt</RouteType>

        <CruisingAlt>37000</CruisingAlt>

        <DepartureID>EGSS</DepartureID>

        <DepartureLLA>N51° 53' 05.00" , E00° 14' 05.00",</DepartureLLA>

        <DestinationID>LSZH</DestinationID>

        <DestinationLLA>N47° 27' 29.00" , E08° 32' 53.00",</DestinationLLA>

        <Descr>EGSS, LSZH</Descr>

        <DeparturePosition>16</DeparturePosition>

        <DepartureName>LONDON/STANSTED</DepartureName>

        <DestinationName>ZURICH</DestinationName>

        <AppVersion>

            <AppVersionMajor>10</AppVersionMajor>

            <AppVersionBuild>60905</AppVersionBuild>

        </AppVersion>

        <ATCWaypoint id="EGSS">

             <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N51° 53' 05.00",E00° 14' 05.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>EGSS</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="WESUL">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N51° 40' 14.00",E00° 29' 08.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>WESUL</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="FERIT">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N51° 37' 59.00",E00° 32' 21.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>FERIT</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="GILDA">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N51° 36' 06.00",E00° 35' 00.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>GILDA</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="KOPUL">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N51° 32' 31.00",E01° 08' 13.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>KOPUL</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="TEBRA">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N51° 29' 20.00",E01° 36' 42.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>TEBRA</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="RAPIX">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N51° 26' 35.00",E02° 00' 00.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>RAPIX</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="DIBLI">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N51° 24' 42.00",E02° 15' 45.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>DIBLI</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="BULAM">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N51° 21' 08.00",E02° 45' 01.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>BULAM</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="LUMEN">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N51° 16' 10.00",E03° 24' 23.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>LUMEN</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="DENUT">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N51° 14' 10.00",E03° 39' 27.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>DENUT</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="BUB">

             <ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N50° 54' 08.00",E04° 32' 17.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>BUB</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="ROUSY">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N49° 28' 35.00",E06° 06' 54.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>ROUSY</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="GTQ">

             <ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N48° 59' 11.00",E06° 42' 58.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>GTQ</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="BAMEV">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N47° 50' 07.00",E07° 23' 05.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>BAMEV</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="BLM">

             <ATCWaypointType>VOR</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N47° 37' 58.00",E07° 29' 58.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>BLM</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="ZH677">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N47° 34' 37.00",E07° 44' 12.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>ZH677</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="GIPOL">

             <ATCWaypointType>Intersection</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N47° 30' 19.00",E08° 02' 26.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>GIPOL</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

        <ATCWaypoint id="LSZH">

             <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>

             <WorldPosition>N47° 27' 29.00",E08° 32' 53.00",</WorldPosition>

             <ICAO>

                 <ICAOIdent>LSZH</ICAOIdent>

             </ICAO>

        </ATCWaypoint>

    </FlightPlan.FlightPlan>

</SimBase.Document>

 

  from London Stansted distance 451 nm that you can try using the default GPS. This is an RNAV STAR.

Thanks for that detailed reply.  Interesting information.  So basically for airports that have lots of terrain, I guess I could just use NOTAMS and not worry about changing the MSA?  I guess I may be able to use the short final option in that case maybe if the MSA is too high and get lower than what RC says?  Once again, thanks for the reply.  That's very helpful.

The RC uses the MSA altitude to calculate the intersect altitude for the extended final. In terrain with high spots it may be too high since it uses an average. As long as you have chart6 guidance for the approach you can lower it to the altitudes on the vertical profile but still apply NOTAMS for your airport pattern.

 

The intent for the short approach was added to accommodate slower GA which do not require a long final if ai traffic permits. If no traffic is around there is no point in using a long final coming in over water.

 

Look for one of the freeware TCAS gauges to get situational awareness of ai around you in the pattern. Some can be installed as a pop-up if you do not wish to modify a panel.

 

http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=tcas&CatID=fsxgau&Go=Search

 

turned up a number of FSX TCAS gauges.

Thanks.  I think that may help.  I was just thinking of changing the MSA to what's shown on the chart.  This might help for example with KBUR, I could change the MSA to the SILEX altitude of 4000 or 3700 feet.  I could then go from SILEX to BUDDE.  I'll take a look at that TCAS gauge.  Might actually download it.  Thanks again for the help.

Thanks.  I think that may help.  I was just thinking of changing the MSA to what's shown on the chart.  This might help for example with KBUR, I could change the MSA to the SILEX altitude of 4000 or 3700 feet.  I could then go from SILEX to BUDDE.  I'll take a look at that TCAS gauge.  Might actually download it.  Thanks again for the help.

The altitude in the R8 approach for KBUR about 12 out is 4,000. Due to the high terrain in the adjacent quadrants, RC has 5,387 because of the biased average.

 

Have a look (using a text editor only) at m4.csv and compare the altitude there with the charts. This is a fixed database so:

 

KBUR,5387,18000

 

is near the MSA average (18000 is the transition altitude).

 

LYNXX8 has 6,000 at the VNY transition.

OK, I'll look at it.  I'll use 4000 then instead of 3700.  That probably would be better.  Thanks.

Have a look at these two FSX gauge descriptions in the library here;

 

mmmap_v1.0.zip in the .pdf has the various gauge screens including a map terrain and camera view.

rathyeon_anr75.zip has also a terrain view but no screen shots included.

 

(A search for terrain in the FSX gauges library.)

I'll do that.  That will help some more.  Thanks.