So here's the scenario... You've taken off from BWI, heading for Boston (Logan). You've got a dynamic weather program running, so "real world" conditions will be reflected at your destination airport. Using plain old add-ons and ATC, descents and vectoring happen just by using the ATC interface... But what happens when you have more sophisticated aircraft add-ons that require longer descent times than Microsoft ATC usually gives you. And how can you determine what runway is in use when you're over 100 miles out to plan ahead and enter into an FMC a decent approach? It seems ATIS barely gives you enough time to react.Anyone have any procedures that work if you're not getting ATC vectors? Does one just use any old runway?

I just get an actual real world weather report off of www.weather.com before I download weather in FS. Rarely will wind conditions change so much that a different landing direction would be required.However, ITRW, you need to have your plates (and you brain) ready for runway assignment changes on VERY short notice for lots of reasons from weather to traffic to ruways mishaps etc.As far as the descent profile is concerned, I don't fly big iron or the flight levels very often but I would assume that FS ATC starts you down in relation to your altitude and distance from the airport you filed for...but I am just guessing about that. But you can figure your own descent profile in your head (or more precisely with a calulator).Just divide your ground speed by 60 to arrive at miles per minute over the ground...then pick a descent rate of, say, 3000 FPM and divide the number of feet you need to descend to get to pattern altitude by 3000...and you will solve for DISTANCE to reach pattern altitude. Add a margin for slowing down to pattern speed and there you go.In other words...1. At 240 kts you are making 4 miles per minute.2. From FL 220 to pattern altitude is, say, 21,000 ft.3. 21,000 divided by 3000 ft. per MINUTE = 7 minutes.4. 7 minutes at 4 miles per minute = 28 miles.5. Given jet speeds, add maybe 5 miles to slow down so...6. Plan to start the descent 33 miles out.7. I would GUESS that passenger jets descend more gradually than that, maybe 2000 FPM, which would add 10 miles or so to the above but you get the idea. Sort of a poor man's FMS.Regards,Jim

Hi,There is an easier way, a rule of tumb:Devide the altitude (in FL) your need to descend by 3 and add +/- 10nm for wind correction (tail/headwind). You will descend at appr 1800-2000ft/minSo descending from FL360 to FL100 requires:(360-100)/3 = appr. 85nm +/- 10nm wind correctionDescending from FL220 to 1000 = 210/3 = 70nm

Ummmm, you guys are making this way to hard. What we do at work is this, first of all you should be able to pick up the ATIS at around 100-120 miles out, the ATIS is usually "cut" at about 10 till the hour so if a new ATIS is going to come out before you get where your going you'll want to check back. Now you have the wx (winds included). As far as descent goes we just figure 1000/min down (don't want to scare the patient). So if your going down 1000/min that means what????? that in 10 minutes you'll lose 10,000ft. For ex. if we are at 27,000 and we need to get down to say 3000 then we have 24,000 to lose. So when do we start down? Well, close 24 minutes seems right but when we look at the GPS and it tells us we're 24 minutes away, that is at our cruise speed but we'll gain speed going downhill so we either have to descend faster than 1000 or start a little sooner. If flying were too hard, I wouldn't be able to get my little brain around it:) Oh, btw I fly a KingAir 200B. Bjorkman

Well... yes. Descending without Microsoft's ATC isn't really so much the issue, as then you can sorta "wing it" (literally) to get down to approach altitude when you need to be there.When things get tricky--and downright preposterous--is when you're trying to use something like PMDG's 737 FMC in accordance with Microsloth's ATC. Today, approaching BWI (my return trip) It ordered me to descend to 2000ft, turn to my localizer intercept heading, and home in... This is ordinarily not a problem.Sadly, it told me this when I was still at FL240.I suppose ~in theory~ I could have made the turn, and eventually the glide slope...But the screaming of passengers would have weighed heavily on my conscience.So I went missed as soon as I could, knowing there's no way I'd be able to get from FL240 to 2000ft in about 20 miles... So what did they do? Saw I had time to turn BACK on to the localizer course, even though there's no way I'd intercept the glide slope.Called in Missed again.Four times.Finally shut off ATC, since they were obviously taking hallucinogens, and set up my own approach. Bandit Style, as the FAA wouldn't approve of my landing on runway 28 without any sort of clearance at all.Landed swimmingly.

<>That's been around for a long time but is best used, if at all, by low flying GA aircraft. The winds and therfore the ground speed impact of which will almost always be dramatically greater than 10 kts.And what if you don't want to (or can't because of a crossing altitude restriction) descend at 1800-2000 fpm...which, by the way is a +/- 10% variation in rate of descent which can put the whole exercise WAY off target.Regards,Jim

<>But how far from the airport were you when you got you descent clearance? That is the issue. No "screaming patients" necessarily if you were far enough out.Regards,Jim

As said above, I guess the most important parameter is establishing your initial flight level vs. your flight distance. The PMDG FMC should also calculate both a comfortable climb and descent rate based on entering your determined FL. If you're only traversing 200-300nm then a lower FL is warranted to ensure a comfortable T/C & T/D point to-and-from altitude. Of course weather is to be factored into determining the appropriate FL as well.Since I prefer more realism in regard to the FS9 ATC, I completely bypass using the Departure and Approach controller level ATC vectoring because it's too generic. It doesn't realistically step you down. So on landing, I prefer to simply fly my STAR through the approach phase and contact TWR at about 15-10nm out to get established on the active. That's not a complaint on MS considering how far the sim has come in ten years, but until ATC has the logic to interpret SIDS & STARS, noise abatement procedures, CAT III requests in inclement weather, and no-fly zones....it doesn't really make any sense to use the Approach Controller other than to safely set you up for an unrealistically generous approach vector into the active.But as others have said above, you should tune into your arrival ATIS at about 80-70nm out (and sometimes enroute with other reporting stations within range of your flight plan if you need a hint about local wx conditions along the way) and then set up the FMC for the most logical active rwy per ATIS. FS9 ATC Approach and Tower will "always" vector you into the nearest active rwy from your approach heading based on wind direction and required rwy length....so you can almost bank on the active.Additionally, on approaching the terminal area, your speed should be well within 210kts IAS below FL50 to better manage any sudden landing rwy re-assignments if issued from TWR. You'll buy some time getting down to the LOC without using the barf bags (and leaving a vapor trail also).Mike (KJFK/KLGA)DELL XPS Gen 5 Dual Core HTT 3.2GHz 800FSB2GB DDR2 SDRAM, 800GB RAIDWinXPP (SP2) DX9ATI Radeon X850 XT PE2405FP 24" Ultrasharp Widescreen...and Loving PMDG 737 800-900/Level-D 767/Ultimate Traffic/Imagine Simulations KDEN,KDTW,KMSY/Ultimate Terrain USA/Active Camera Pro/Weather Maker Pro 3/FsPassengers/All of FlyTampa

<>Is that the case in FS? I THINK the original poster's issue was that is not the case. I could be wrong.Regards,Jim

you can start your descent earlier by requesting a lower altitude from the MS ATC. And the key here, is SLOW DOWN! When descending, if I am closer to the airport than I'd like, I would slow down to 240-200 knots first, then descend at a rate of about 2000 FPM or more, depending on the aircraft.

I fly mostly heavy jets, specifically the Boeing 777, and have little trouble attaining ATC altitude crossing restrictions using the "3 times your altitude + 10" descent calculation, and starting at 1800 ft/min, the descent rate recommended in the Boeing manual. In other words, at FL 330, 3 x 33= 99 miles + 10 = 109 miles out, at 290-300 knots. Don't forget, your're not descending to the tarmac initially, nor at the same high speed the entire way down. ATC will likely level you off in steps, and then one must slow to 250 KIAS below FL 100, at least in the continental US. Abroad, you can scream on in at 300 KIAS, which according to the instructors at the United training facility in Denver, is what they do until just a dozen or two miles out! A nice trick in flightsim, though not as "real world" as relying on the ATIS, is to use a program like FS METEO, a third party wether generator that has a provision for you to get both the departure AND arrival ATIS information on the ground before you go, so you can anticipate the arrival runway in advance. The program updates weather info on a regular (every few minutes) basis. I justify this as similar to the printed info the airline OPS people would provide to pilots in the briefing room prior to boarding the aircraft, so I can sleep at night not thinking I'm "cheating" in FS :-lolHope that helps,http://www.alaska.faa.gov/fai/Clipart/SmlAcft.gifAlex ChristoffN562ZBaltimore, MD