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Johan_Dees

Pioneering a/c designers, where are they now?

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Pioneering a/c designers.I refer to the likes of Jerry Arzdorf, Mike Hill, Michael Guerzka, another Hill several more whose names escape me at the moment.These people are largely responsible for the huge and continued success of MSFS but they all seem to have vanished from the scene post FS98.Who knows, I believe they should be acknowleged.Anyone know?

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The attitudes of the flightsim consumer have scared off more than one contributor.

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Yeah I guess the whole site should just close down huh?I diasgree with your theory.And for everyone that has dissapeared, there are others learning and coming forward with their work.The Avsim library has grown by over 60,000 files Just this month, take a look at the growth chart and the rate of growth, and developers IMHO have grown.Have some been driven off. Not IMHO. They choose to develop or they choose not too. Maybe they simply get BURNED out, or get bored with MSFS or just stop doing it because to is no longer fun.This is no different than some taking a break from simming for a bit.And maybe some of the developers work is no longer of a decent quality that they blame consumers instead of taking responsibility for learning new techniques to keep up.Consumer expectations are high with this or any other consumer driven product. And over time, some will get out of developing, but they make that choice.Putting blame on consumers simply does not make it so. It may be a contributing factor, but I am of the opinion that there are usually other circumstances involved as well.So take a look at the library, and IMHO, it seems to be alive and well. People that used to develop may have simply moved on with their lives, and no longer find satisfaction with the sim or the hobby.So I disagree with your theory. Sonar5JOIN The AVSIM RTW RACE FLIGHT TEAM****************Grab My FREEWARE Cessna 172 Voice recognition Profile here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

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In starting this thread I didn't expect it to turn into a why's and wherefores accusatory session, rather I am a) genuinely interested in where these early developers are and why they have handed on the mantle. and :( a recognition and hopefully celebration of the work they produced.IMO without their pioneering work in the formative days of MSFS I believe that the sim would not have developed as much as it has. In doing so they are in some measure responsible for the explosion in companies which have flourished off the back of the sim.I am sure that relative newcomers to MSFS look at these early designs for FS4/5/98 and think the aircraft look primative by todays high standards but they should appreciate that without them it is unlikely that we would be enjoying the high quality models which we do.So if any of you old timers look in (Jerry, Terry, Mike, Michael etc...you know who you are) I hope you are all well and enjoying life, Perhaps Avsim as the leading FS portal should put together some sort of tribute towards them, they deserve it. I would but haven't the talent.

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Well Sonar5, your flat out wrong. So many developers in this hobby have been driven off because of attitudes that members in this hobby have. Insane demands. Whining at people who do this for free. Ask Project Freeware. Do people come and fill the void? Yes. Thats why the library is so big. But to tell me that my "theory" is just wrong is silly, and you are one of the few people on this site that ought to know better.

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ba747heavy,First off, Your comment about me that ought to know better, I find inappropriate since I was responding to what you had written first in this thread. For you to throw that out there is puzzling.Please read your first comment in this thread and reflect on that.Second, I CANNOT be wrong as it is my opinion, and therefore cannot be wrong in my opinion.Third, I NEVER SAID your theory is wrong, I Clearly stated that I disagreed with it twice.Please read my post again, opine on what I did say, not on what you are reading into it.I offered my opinion and I stated I disagreed with yours. That is a clear difference from you stating I said your theory is wrong. I never said that.And then you say me stating your theory is wrong is just silly. How can something be silly when I never stated it?Please take a few minutes before responding to this, and read my post as it was written, not what you think it says.I'd appreciate it.Sonar5You said:>Well Sonar5, your flat out wrong. So many developers in this>hobby have been driven off because of attitudes that members>in this hobby have. Insane demands. Whining at people who do>this for free. Ask Project Freeware. Do people come and fill>the void? Yes. Thats why the library is so big. But to tell>me that my "theory" is just wrong is silly, and you are one of>the few people on this site that ought to know better.

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I apologize to you for responding to what another person wrote.I should have simply ignored it for what it was. I hope you hear from some of those you are seeking.Best Regards,Joe

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Joe (It took me an hour to remember your name, otherwise I would have used it in my first post),Please don't play word games. Fine, you never said "Fred your theory is wrong" but your long diatriabe, in which you said "I disagree with you" certainly was not proving my point, and in fact was meant to shoot it down. The implication that you think my theory is wrong is most certainly not outside of the realm of thought. Or am I off base with this thought?I could have phrased that last sentence a bit better, so I apologize to you for that. Let me attempt to say what I meant to say by rephrasing that:"I fail to see how my thought process is wrong, because there is massive evidence that I am in fact right. The own admissions of the people who have been involved say they are leaving because of the attitudes of folks involved. In fact, many have said this kind of thing on this forum. I am suprised, because you have been in this hobby a while by my recollection and you probably seen these people jumping ship."There, without the offensive content. More long-winded but I guess that is better.

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I'm sorry Joe, but I'd say that of the entire growth, the amount of QUALITY contributions has stayed more or less the same (if it hasn't decreased). Just because someone uploads 40 repaints in a row it doesn't mean they're all good or worth downloading. We're gaining lots of new developers, but not a lot of good ones.EDIT - Also, Fred never said we should close down anything, but it's a fact that many developers have gotten discouraged and left because of the infantile behavior and expectations some people have in this community. Daniel P.http://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/forum/ng_driver.jpgMember of SJU Photography. [A HREF=http://www.jetphotos.net/showphotos.php?userid=9004]Click Here[/A] to view my aircraft photos at JetPhotos.Net!The official psychotic AA painter. :)

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"I'm sorry Joe, but I'd say that of the entire growth, the amount of QUALITY contributions has stayed more or less the same (if it hasn't decreased). Just because someone uploads 40 repaints in a row it doesn't mean they're all good or worth downloading. We're gaining lots of new developers, but not a lot of good ones."It's exactly this reason why original contributions are dwindling. Everyone has to start somewhere, and even if they upload a simple project that's simple in our eyes, it's a lot of sweat and labor on their side. Why do we want to upload if we sense "old timers" are "rolling their eyes" at our contributions? I don't paint, but I've contributed models of my own and in collaboration with others. I hear back from one out of every thousand downloaders--even that's a stretch. And usually I hear "Why doesn't the door open" or "Why did you use stock gauges" or "Why does it climb through FL200 without a turbocharger".To answer the original question in the thread, we've all grown older and have less time. That, plus the "quality contributions" that people suggest just doesn't allow for any meaningful contributions. I was in my 20's when I first flew FS on a C64.... I'm in my mid-40's now. Most of the people mentioned have also seen their lives and priorities change. And we have some, like Rey, who are sadly no longer with us. In the end, today's design programs are so complex and "quality" is such a buzzword, that quick projects like those of Chuck Dome and others (I include myself in the others category) are a market with no consumer.-John

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The original poster just wanders on where they are all gone to with their life, not asking for why they are gone.. read the post.Most of them simply moved on, like, believe it or not, we will do also eventually...Johan[A HREF=http://jdserver.no-ip.com]Personal Server[/A]or..http://62.238.33.10

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Good point Johan, pretty much one I was trying to make. But since the discussion evolved into why and a comment was made about quality, like usual I stuck my nose where it probably didn't belong :)-John

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