The principle of justifying costs. Payware or Corporations

[Guest Zevious Zoquis]

Joe, theres no hypocricy here. Developers make claims about how much work is involved and how many hours it takes creating these add-ons, and we either believe them or we don't. I have no reason to believe that people like Rob Young and Lou Betti are liars so I choose to believe them. You choose to ask for proof which you will never recieve - not becuase it doesn't exist, but becuase nobody is going to show you their books. Personally, I don't need proof. I look at an add-on and decide whether I want it enough to pay the price and if I don't I don't buy it. That's what most grown-ups do many times a day. The problem here is you seem to think you are the only one intelligent and wise enough to make a reasoned buying decision. You aren't. So ok, you don't believe the devs claims. Fine. You've stated your position and made your point. I guess perhaps since you are calling into question the ethics and honesty of quite a large number of people who have given quite a lot to this community in the form of both free and commercial products, it wouldn't be that much of a reach for you to be asked to present whatever proof you have that they are lying would it?...

[Guest Shalomar]

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!Edit: Darn, it happened again! I'm sure i single clicked on "post message".

[Guest Shalomar]

Donny AKA ShalomarFly 2 ROCKS!!!To reinforce what some have said, car dealers "open their books" all the time and what does it really accomplish. Has anyone considered the "forced obsolecense" factor on pricing imposed on every developer after a few years? There are a few freeware development groups, some surprisingly large. They won't necessarily want to develop what you want, or include what you want. As long as there is a sucker born every minute, every industry will have SOME vendors with "high" prices for "low quality" goods. Normal rules of "buyer beware" always apply. Freeware doesn't always give everything everyone wants, and even payware has certain limitations. Payware developers might be forced to make compromises in areas not everyone agrees with. Including what they charge. If you want a perfect simulation of a Cessna 172 or any other aircraft, buy the plane. Bet that would cost more though.It doesn't add anything to this discussion, but to answer Ron, "haggling" has come into the retail outlets. If you discretely (key word) offer a reasonable price to an associate at Sears, Kmart, Home Depot and others, especially towards the end of the month, they can check with a superior and have it authorised.Best Regards, Donny:-wave

[Guest glnflwrs]

It all boils down to the moral in an old story that goes. . .You find yourself with a car that won't start out on a desert road hundreds of miles from anywhere. A lone motorist offers to send help. An hour or two later a tow truck pulls up and the driver takes a look under your hood. He tells you he can have you going right away with a little bit of work for $200. You pay the man, he taps your distributor with his pliers, and your car starts and runs well.Do you complain about a $200 tap? No. You didn't pay for the tap, you paid for the knowledge of where and how to tap and the $200 was rightly earned.Moral? If it's worth the price to you you can't complain about what it took to get whatever it is to market.BTW, do or sell anything to any US Gov't. agency and you'll open all your books and on a monthly basis justify and probably lower your prices to them. Fact of life.Glenn

[Guest Zevious Zoquis]

I wouldn't count on that "lowering your prices" bit. Haven't you heard of those $200 hammers and $25 bolts the govt. is always buying? :)

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

JoeI remember when X plane was something like $180 ??? very few bought it and then the price was cut dramatically.What concerns me more is producers who make claims to sell a product which are misleading or overhype the quality of that product.They then fool the prospective purchaser into shelling out his hard earned cash on false promises.I have bitten the bait on reality claims and have a few aircraft which have frankly been a big dissapointment from the claims which were made.This to me is more important than a what a producer charges. I have had loads of value and fun from the Level D 767 and knowing what I know of this aircraft would now pay $80 for the aircraft if it was so priced.best wishesPeter

[Sonar5 3]

Hi Peter,Thanks. It is that regard that is usually when I choose to respond. I see questioning the hype and claims as a developer tries their marketing scheme on the masses as being perfectly ok to question. Some don't and that is ok too. It is a matter of balance. It really is their choice to make whatever claims they choose, but it is also our choice in offering opinions of those claims whether it bothers them or not. I rarely fall for the bait on new add-on hype, as I am a patient person who practices delayed gratification as an art form. I also thouroughly research a buy before I do so, even if it does have a refund policy. I don't think a refund policy is a valid excuse not to research and is not a very good argument, in my opinion. BTW - I didn't know x plane was priced at $180 at some point. Yowsa, that's a lot. :-)Take Care,JoeGrab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[mgh 89]

Can you give me some links to whining needlessly about a developers alleged costs, and how they don't make any money, etc....

[Sonar5 3]

Can you give me some links to whining needlessly about a developers alleged costs, and how they don't make any money, etc....Hi,I would have sent this via a message but you seem to have all that disabled. ;-)Try this:Go Here:http://forums.avsim.net/dcboard.php?az=sea...&select_forum=0Type in Sonar5Choose "Search Which Field" Choose AuthorChoose search all forums, and search all topics, then click search and read at your pleasure.It will display the first 187 Pages. :-)And you will find that which you seek.Grab My FREEWARE Voice recognition Profiles here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=58334]Cessna 172 Voice Profile[/a][a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=fs2004misc&DLID=60740]FSD Avanti Voice Profile[/a].You will need the main FREEWARE Flight Assistant program to use it, get it here:[a href=http://library.avsim.net/esearch.php?CatID=genutils&DLID=39661]Flight Assistant 2.2[/a]

[Guest Peter Sidoli]

>BTW - I didn't know x plane was priced at $180 at some point. Yowsa, that's a lot. Take Care,Joe

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Not having read the other replies, I just wanted to say people should feel free to discuss pricing all they want without someone flaming them regarding their opinion. The same is true of product claims, product features, etc... People should be able to offer an opinion--and the cliche "do you own it?" shouldn't enter the discussion. For example, I have an opinion on a Lexus. I don't have to own one to have an opinion on it. Some thoughts, especially those on FDE's, certainly should come from ownership experience or trusted anecdotal experience. But no vendor should have to prostrate themselves and justify their pricing or any other aspect of their business, short of someone claiming their work is non-profit. If a vendor chooses to enter the forums and battle members over their opinions, that's another matter. Their own claims become advertising for their products, and although they can offer their view, they have no right to stifle views here either directly or by proxy. They can do that in their own support forums.It's hard to compare the larger commercial world to our hobby, though. Some businesses are heavily regulated and their books open to the outside world. Casinos, insurance companies, publicly traded companies, and so on. Anyway, my short answer is in this hobby, the market forces should prevail and word of mouth be the true proof of a product's value. For the entertainment dollar, 99 pct. of the add-ons are a bargain. I've spent a couple dozen hours flying my last add-on--Bill Lyon's Challenger and an equal amount flying the Avanti I bought before that. Last week, I attended "Jazz Attacks" with Richard Elliott, Peter White, Jonathan Butler and Rick Braun. It added up to two hours, and cost the same as the Avanti and Bill's Challenger together. My opinion--most add-ons are not only bargains, I suspect their mfrs do it for love and not for profit.-John

[Guest dsflyer]

. Totally agree., i think the prices are very competetive in the flight simulator market. And as you said we are so lucky that many talented developers share their love of flight simulator with everyone else. Personally i would pay "what it takes" so long as the program does what is says on the tin, and amazingly so many third party programs do. heheee big respect to these guys! CheersDan :-)

[Guest glnflwrs]

Well stated and supported John. Excellent post!Glenn

[Guest almogo]

> For the entertainment dollar, 99 pct. of the>add-ons are a bargain. I've spent a couple dozen hours flying>my last add-on--Bill Lyon's Challenger and an equal amount>flying the Avanti I bought before that. Last week, I attended>"Jazz Attacks" with Richard Elliott, Peter White, Jonathan>Butler and Rick Braun. It added up to two hours, and cost the>same as the Avanti and Bill's Challenger together. My>opinion--most add-ons are not only bargains, I suspect their>mfrs do it for love and not for profit.>>-JohnI don't agree with this analogy. You try to put the same price tag on all kind of different forms of entertainment. Try to compare it to other hobbies you might have and see the difference. According to this analogy, radio is extremely cheap for all the hours of entertainment it can provide with almost no cost. What about your t.v ? If you will try to price it by hours of use, each tv set would have cost hundred of thousand of dollars. And I won't even start with PC's...Oren

[John_Cillis 2,406]

I guess you can look at it that way too Oren. You certainly stated your thought clearly enough, and I would never hope we end up paying someday "by the hour" for our entertainment. I know I'd certainly see "Jazz Attack" again. I might even give up an add-on--hearing music we love, or sharing a dinner with our spouse, certainly has emotional value that you can't put a price on. So you have a good point too. -John