Departure runways waypoints

[arrex 5]

Hi,

Also from the manual "The departure and arrival runways as well as the related waypoints are exported as custom waypoints (or coordinates) in some flight plan formats like MSFS PLN, X-Plane FMS and others.". What is it "MSFS PLN"? Does it refer to MSFS 2020 only or also older PLN format (FSX and P3D?). Because I noticed that export in FSX also has these waypoints added.... which gives some problem is using the default ATC system....

Is this intended or a bug? And if it is intended, what's the rationale behind? Can the export be excluded? In particolar I believe the one creating the biggest problems with ATC is the 1st one, at the runway head. That's because it's too close to the starting airport reference point. The risk is (depending where the ARP is wrt this point) that the ATC system does not detect properly the passage through this waypoint and starts to vector you soon to "go back" to the airport and pass it

 

[albar965 1,047]

Hi Antonio,

the points exported are intended.
They are exported to all formats where it does not blow up the sim or add-on to my knowledge. Don't have a list in mind and too lazy to look up now.

And it depends on simulator or add-on. They all react in a different way to this. For airliners like Toliss, Rotate or PMDG I simply delete the two points in the FMC/MCDU and select the departure or approach runway manually. Have to select procedures manually anyway.

If you see problems simply delete the departure, export and click undo to get the departure back in LNM as a workaround.

For the X-Plane FMS export I remove the first point to avoid confusing the stock G1000 and others.

I can remove the first point and keep the second like for X-Plane if it helps. Have to see. Still fixing bugs in 3.0.4.

Alex

[arrex 5]

I would suggest to gate the expost to an option in file->Export options ....

Default ATC doesn't digest them.... at least the 1st one; so I am talking normal export .pln, not formats of addon products.... Currently i solved by not using the departure at all (PS: for landing runway, that's not a problem)

 

 

[albar965 1,047]

19 minutes ago, arrex said:

Default ATC doesn't digest them.... at least the 1st one; so I am talking normal export .pln, not formats of addon products.... Currently i solved by not using the departure at all (PS: for landing runway, that's not a problem)

I'll remove the first point. But unlikely to go into 3.0.4, sorry. I'd to this for MSFS too but this needs more tests.

Alex

[arrex 5]

No rush 🙂

 

[albar965 1,047]

16 hours ago, arrex said:

No rush

Was no big thing. Just added for FSX/P3D and MSFS export. Still have to do some testing with the sims.

[Max_D 0]

I'm testing the export to FS2020 option and finding mixed results with the G1000 (in the 172) for the departure.

FS2020 World Map screen (after import) often changes the runways (sometimes for arrival as well as departures), and other times you end up with a 'V' pattern on your GPS departure before they merge at a later point.

So basically if I want to start ready to go on a runway (in the Sim), should I NOT select a starting runway in LNM (only a departure airport), then in the export options, ONLY click save (ie. don't select a starting point in that LNM export dialogue box), then when I load up the SIM, the G1000 shouldn't be confused with multiple paths from the airport departure area? I'm trying to nail down a repeatable procedure for having IFR flight plans that I've prepared in LNM, then export to MSFS, where both the Sim and the G1000 closely match what I planned in LNM. So far...the results are all over the place.

Sounds like the best way so far is (as stated above) - remove the departure details, then export, then re-add them back in?

[albar965 1,047]

8 hours ago, Max_D said:

Sounds like the best way so far is (as stated above) - remove the departure details, then export, then re-add them back in?

Do not set a departure runway in LNM if you see issues with MSFS. I does normally work but MSFS... This adds a user waypoint along the departure which can confuse the MSFS flight plan import. Try the function "Select a Start Position" and set a runway or parking spot instead of selecting the departure runway. Unfortunately MSFS flight plan import is buggy and all over the place. Only Asobo can fix this but it seems they are not interested.

Here is a list of problems in the FAQ:https://albar965.github.io/littlenavmap-faq.html#flightplan-msfs

If you have examples of unexpected issues, post them here. Maybe I can add improvements to the MSFS export.
Simply open the plan in a text editor and paste the contents here.

Alex

[Max_D 0]

Thanks Alex, I appreciate your reply.  It's such a privilege to speak with the actual developer of this awesome program 🙂

I've continued testing the same flight plan in several configurations: 

1. Inserting the departure runway in LNM and exporting (with runway set).

2. Only having the departure set from the airport (and using that 'start position' function to set runway / parking spot.

3. Only having departure set from airport, but manually adding waypoints (route change) to the runway I want and another 3 miles out in runway direction.

The results are either two paths ('V' shaped) from the airport, or no path from the airport and the GPS path only starts at the iaf (first point in my approach).

Image captures: https://imgur.com/a/UohFLeH

 

Example flight plan:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<SimBase.Document Type="AceXML" version="1,0">
    <Descr>AceXML Document</Descr>
    <FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
        <Title>YBBN to YBSU</Title>
        <FPType>IFR</FPType>
        <RouteType>LowAlt</RouteType>
        <CruisingAlt>4000</CruisingAlt>
        <DepartureID>YBBN</DepartureID>
        <DepartureLLA>S27* 22' 58.54",E153* 6' 24.85",+000013.00</DepartureLLA>
        <DestinationID>YBSU</DestinationID>
        <DestinationLLA>S26* 36' 12.00",E153* 5' 27.94",+000015.00</DestinationLLA>
        <Descr>YBBN, YBSU created by Little Navmap 3.0.5</Descr>
        <DeparturePosition>1L</DeparturePosition>
        <DepartureName>Brisbane Intl</DepartureName>
        <DestinationName>Maroochydore/Sunshine Coast</DestinationName>
        <AppVersion>
            <AppVersionMajor>11</AppVersionMajor>
            <AppVersionBuild>282174</AppVersionBuild>
        </AppVersion>
        <ATCWaypoint id="YBBN">
            <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
            <WorldPosition>S27* 23' 2.79",E153* 7' 3.19",+000013.00</WorldPosition>
            <ICAO>
                <ICAOIdent>YBBN</ICAOIdent>
            </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="RW01L3">
            <ATCWaypointType>User</ATCWaypointType>
            <WorldPosition>S27* 20' 18.59",E153* 7' 56.70",+000966.57</WorldPosition>
            <ICAO>
                <ICAOIdent>RW01L3</ICAOIdent>
            </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="YBSU">
            <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
            <WorldPosition>S26* 36' 12.00",E153* 5' 27.94",+000015.00</WorldPosition>
            <SuffixFP>Y</SuffixFP>
            <ApproachTypeFP>RNAV</ApproachTypeFP>
            <RunwayNumberFP>31</RunwayNumberFP>
            <ICAO>
                <ICAOIdent>YBSU</ICAOIdent>
            </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
    </FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
</SimBase.Document>
 

 

For now, I've worked out the easiest method is to include the runway in the LNP export (even though MSFS changes this to another departing runway facing the wrong way!), then manually change your starting runway in the SIM, then if you get the dual paths on the G1000, just go into PROCEDURES and SELECT APPROACH, LOAD APPROACH, it makes the dual path lines from the airport disappear and it follows the single GPS path to the IAF transition perfectly (and continues down the glidepath to the runway thanks to VNAV).

Thanks,

Matt

Dual paths :

Manually set waypoint on runway - still dual paths:

No path to IAF (GPS path only starts at the beginning of the approach):

The result of dual paths means the AP keeps flying 'over' the iaf and fails to turn left to commence the RNAV approach procedure (*note the small pink line on the flight plan page below):

[Max_D 0]

Apologies - flight plan was meant to be inserted using the 'code' function:

 

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<SimBase.Document Type="AceXML" version="1,0">
    <Descr>AceXML Document</Descr>
    <FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
        <Title>YBBN to YBSU</Title>
        <FPType>IFR</FPType>
        <RouteType>LowAlt</RouteType>
        <CruisingAlt>4000</CruisingAlt>
        <DepartureID>YBBN</DepartureID>
        <DepartureLLA>S27* 22' 58.54",E153* 6' 24.85",+000013.00</DepartureLLA>
        <DestinationID>YBSU</DestinationID>
        <DestinationLLA>S26* 36' 12.00",E153* 5' 27.94",+000015.00</DestinationLLA>
        <Descr>YBBN, YBSU created by Little Navmap 3.0.5</Descr>
        <DeparturePosition>1L</DeparturePosition>
        <DepartureName>Brisbane Intl</DepartureName>
        <DestinationName>Maroochydore/Sunshine Coast</DestinationName>
        <AppVersion>
            <AppVersionMajor>11</AppVersionMajor>
            <AppVersionBuild>282174</AppVersionBuild>
        </AppVersion>
        <ATCWaypoint id="YBBN">
            <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
            <WorldPosition>S27* 23' 2.79",E153* 7' 3.19",+000013.00</WorldPosition>
            <ICAO>
                <ICAOIdent>YBBN</ICAOIdent>
            </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="RW01L3">
            <ATCWaypointType>User</ATCWaypointType>
            <WorldPosition>S27* 20' 18.59",E153* 7' 56.70",+000966.57</WorldPosition>
            <ICAO>
                <ICAOIdent>RW01L3</ICAOIdent>
            </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
        <ATCWaypoint id="YBSU">
            <ATCWaypointType>Airport</ATCWaypointType>
            <WorldPosition>S26* 36' 12.00",E153* 5' 27.94",+000015.00</WorldPosition>
            <SuffixFP>Y</SuffixFP>
            <ApproachTypeFP>RNAV</ApproachTypeFP>
            <RunwayNumberFP>31</RunwayNumberFP>
            <ICAO>
                <ICAOIdent>YBSU</ICAOIdent>
            </ICAO>
        </ATCWaypoint>
    </FlightPlan.FlightPlan>
</SimBase.Document>

 

[albar965 1,047]

Thanks for all the information. I'll have a very  close look at it when I'm done with fixing other issues in LNM.
Alex

[albar965 1,047]

Just tried around with this. The flight plan loads ok on the main screen and then shows erratically in the G1000. No idea what's going on there.

Either it shows a V-shape or only the approach legs are visible in the G1000.

The planning screen in MSFS always shows the runways ok.

I'm at a loss here. No idea what more workarounds can be added. I'd rather say Asobo should get its act together and finally sort out all the flight plan stuff.

Alex

[Max_D 0]

Thanks again for looking into this Alex.

At least you got the planning screen to show the correct departure runway.  What method did you use in LNM to specify your departure runway (was it the little green 'select a start position' button)?

Like I say it only takes a minute to define the correct approach in the G1000 prior to take off, then the duplicate departure paths go away and you get your nice single GPS path.

Cheers,

Matt 

[albar965 1,047]

5 minutes ago, Max_D said:

At least you got the planning screen to show the correct departure runway.  What method did you use in LNM to specify your departure runway (was it the little green 'select a start position' button)?

I used the green start position which shows parking, runways, etc. No V-shape with this but it shows only the approach procedure legs and not the connection from departure to approach procedure. At first I thought the whole plan was missing until I scrolled North.

Also, the simulator ignored the runway selection and placed me on another runway. At least I could change it in the start screen without breaking the plan.

I guess this is one of the cases the sim does not like. I did a lot of testing and a lot of plans work fine.

Alex

 

[Max_D 0]

Yes I found it a bit hit and miss when it came to the sim ignoring my departure runway from LNM.  I wasn't sure if the sim automatically suggested the best runway based on wind direction at the time (more testing required to confirm if this is the case).

I also found that when the flight path (from departure airport to the approach procedure) was missing, I could manually program my departing runway into the G1000 (took a bit of fiddling!), but then it joined the approach leg in the G1000 map.